combat as skills in lieu of BAB?

[Afrodyte]

One development that I really like about d20 is the streamlining of the system. With the advent of "D20 Modern," it seems like WotC is increasingly moving towards a simpler, more intuitive, more versatile system. One thing about this that has made it possible is the skill system.

One thing I've wondered is why they chose not to make combat a part of the skill system, instead relying on BAB to determine combat capability. As such, I have a rough outline of how I could work this written below.

Those of you who are not interesting in exploring, testing, or developing this idea are entitled to their opinions. However, I am more interested in seeing the possibilities with the ideas I have here. I appreciate your cooperation with me on this endeavor.

I realize that this system initially would seem unbalanced. Yet, I think that looking at each class as a whole, I don't believe it probable that you would have magicians and rogues outdoing warriors in armed combat, especially considering the other bonuses these classes get. I gave automatic ranks in these skills to the fighting classes (barbarians, fighters, and monks) according to level (which is sort of what D&D does anyway), but with the option of further competence in these areas.

Without further ado, then, I offer these combat skills.

Melee combat (Str)
Choose a Specialty. Your character is proficient in all melee weapons of its type. Alternatively, when choosing to fight with an exotic weapon, you choose the weapon you can fight with.
Specialties: long blades, short blades, flails (does not include nunchaku), axes, clubs (includes maces and war hammers), polearms (includes quarterstaff and spears) unarmed, exotic. Further specialization gains no additional mechanical benefits.

Ranged combad (Dex)
Same as Melee combat, but choose a type of ranged weapon.
Specialties: bows, crossbows, sling, thrown weapons (darts, daggers, axes), javelin, exotic.

Of course, this leaves the problem of what to do with Weapon Proficiency feats. Off the top of my head, I think nix them. Having skill ranks in the weapon type implies proficiency.

Looking over my notes, I realize that for each class the status of these combat skills varies. For Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, and Monks, it is an automatic skill. You get a free skill point in these skills (with appropriate specialty) each time you level up in the class. For Bards, Rangers, and Rogues it is a class skill (as PHB, but Rogues cannot use their Skill Mastery ability for these). Druids, Sorcerers, and Wizards have these as cross-class skills. Clerics get this as a class skill according to their deity's favored weapon. For all other cases, it is a cross-class skill. If War is one of the deity's domains, it becomes an automatic skill.

To balance out these changes, it only makes sense that I tweak a few more things.

The first is rethink weapon proficiencies for the fighting classes. It makes little sense why a they would be equally proficient with all the weapons granted them.

Off the top of my head, I am thinking of a class ability called Martial Prowess. Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, and Monks gain Melee combat and Ranged combat as automatic skills (with specialties for each). Fighters and Barbarians distribute a number of additional specialties amongst them equal to their Intelligence modifier. All these combat skills are automatic skills. The other classes do not have this option, instead having their automatic skills chosen for them. Monks get Melee Combat (unarmed). Paladins get Melee Combat (sword).

Also going with the flow, I thought of a unique fighter ability called Martial Mastery; I might make this a feat. Choose a number of weapons amongst your Melee and Ranged combat specialties equal up to 1 + Intelligence bonus. You may add +1 to attack and damage rolls with this weapon for every 4 fighter levels when using these weapons. This effect stacks with bonuses from other feats. You may choose this feat multiple times, but it applies to a new set of weapons. Prerequisites: Fighter level 15+.

It sounds complicated, but it isn't. I'll provide an example of what I'm talking about in my next post.

 

[Victim]

The problem is that almost anyone could have a full base attack if they wanted it. Rogues and Monks have useful melee abilities but are limited by by lower attack bonuses. With this system, they could have fighter attacks if they wanted.

A rogue could easily dump 2 of his base 8 skill points into combat skills and have equal attack ability with lots of sneak attack damage. A Monk could use some of his superior skill points when compared to fighters or paladins and have a full base attack. Because Monks get iterative attacks at an accelerated rate, that could quickly prove abusive.

Also, base attack doesn't exceed character level. However, as a skill it could. I'd imagine that many fighting characters would be attacking at 3 or more higher than usual.

I'd be scared of a 4th level monk attacking a +7/+4/+1 base, instead of at +3.

 

[LostSoul]

If you want to go with a system like that, you really have to re-work the classes, or do away with them alltogether. A Rogue, with his high skill points, could easily keep pace with a Fighter. All he has to do is take one level of Fighter and then his cross-class combat skill doesn't have a cross-class max. Then, to balance the Fighter, you'd have to let him have the Rogue abilities as well... and then your classes are pretty much gone.

The easy thing to do to keep BAB down would be to say BAB = skill ranks - 3.

 

[Jack Daniel]

While it doesn't work with BAB, I do wonder if proficiencies would work better on a point system. Characters would get more skill points, like their Star Wars equivalents, but no initial proficiencies:

4+Int Skill Points: Fighter, Paladin, Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Psychic Warrior
6+Int Skill Points: Ranger, Monk, Bard, Barbarian, Druid, Psion
8+Int Skill Points: Rogue

Four new skills would be added, but they don't have ranks and aren't tied to an ability, like Speak Language. Proficiency feats would be scrapped.

Simple Weapons
Class Skill: All but wizard
Cross-Class Skill: Wizard
For 1 rank you are proficient in all simple weapons.

Martial Weapons
Class Skill: Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Psychic Warrior
Cross-Class Skill: Cleric, Bard, Monk, Rogue, Druid, Psion, Sorcerer, Wizard
For each rank you buy, you gain proficiency in one martial weapon.

Exotic Weapons
Class Skill: Monk
Cross-Class Skill: All but monk
For each rank you buy, you gain proficiency in one exotic weapon.

Armors
Class Skill: Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Cleric, Druid
Cross-Class Skill: Rogue, Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion, Monk
For each rank you buy, you gain access to a heavier class of armor, from light, to medium, to heavy.

Shields
Class Skill: Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Psychic Warrior, Cleric, Druid, Rogue, Bard
Cross-Class Skill: Sorcerer, Wizard, Psion, Monk
For one rank you may employ shields.

Two-Weapon Style
Class Skill: Ranger, Barbarian
Cross-Class Skill: All others
For 2 skill ranks, you are considered to have the Ambidexterity and Two-Weapon Fighting feats when in light armor and not wielding a double weapon.

 

[Afrodyte]

examples (long)

Since this house rule is intented to replace BAB, iterative attacks would mean little. Since I'm adding a different category of skills (automatic), it is unlikely that other classes would surpass the fighting classes at fighting skills while still remaining competent in their other abilities. Rogues could indeed use a good number of their skill points for combat abilities, but that would mean fewer skill points for their other skills (Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot being amongst the most crucial for the stealthy Rogue). Monks would only have significant attack advantages at fighting unarmed, but if they still want to put ranks into Balance and Tumble (for defensive purposes), they would probably very carefully advance auxillary fighting abilities.

Let me give you the examples I was thinking of. I'll use 5 characters to explain what I mean. I'll use Fred Fighter, Michelle Monk, Rick Rogue, Cletus Cleric (of Corellon Larethian), and Wilma Wizard. I'll create 1st-level characters using the rules variant I have described below.

Ability scores
Fred (17 STR, 15 DEX, 14 CON, 13 INT, 10 WIS, 8 CHA)
Michelle (13 STR, 17 DEX, 10 INT, 15 WIS, 8 CHA)
Rick (8 STR, 17 DEX, 10 CON, 14 INT, 13 WIS, 15 CHA)
Cletus (10 STR, 14 DEX, 8 CON, 13 INT, 17 WIS, 15 CHA)
Wilma (8 STR, 13 DEX, 14 CON, 17 INT, 15 WIS, 10 CHA)

Fred Fighter starts as PHB dictates. Same skill points, same armor proficiencies, same bonus feats. However, he gets a fighting class ability called Martial Prowess. Looking over the rules for Martial Prowess, I see I made an error. I was not quite clear on what I really meant. I apologize for that.

Martial Prowess gives you one specialty for a combat skill as an automatic skill. Fighters and Barbarians choose the specialty they want. Monks simply get Melee Combat (unarmed) as their automatic combat skill for Martial Prowess. Paladins get Melee Combat (sword) as their automatic combat skill (Simple reason: I have yet to hear of someone distributing a holy avenger as a lance). Clerics with War as one of their domains get their deity's favored weapon as an automatic class skill. In addition, the fighting classes get a number of bonus specialties as class skills equal to their Intelligence bonus. Fighters and Barbarians, instead of making these class skills, get these as automatic skills. For Fighters and Barbarians, all other combat skills are class skills.

Now that I've cleared that up, let's go back to Fred.

Fred's goal in life is to become the greatest swordsman who ever lived (sound familiar?). As such, he will choose Melee Combat (swords) as his first automatic skill due to Martial Prowess. Since Fred is a rather bright chap (+1 INT bonus) he gets an additional automatic skill. Fred decides to make the most of his quick reflexes and gets Ranged Combat (bows) as his second automatic skill. So, for Fred automatically gains one rank per level in these skills. Fred gets twelve skill points at this level (as PHB for his class and Intelligence modifier). He immediately puts 3 into Melee Combat: swords and 3 into Ranged Combat: bows. The rest are distributed amongst Ride, Jump, and Climb. As a fighter, Fred still gets the bonus combat feats, so he immediately chooses Weapon focus (longsword). As a 1st level character, he gets one feat to begin with. Since Fred wants to be an exceptional swordsman, he chooses Skill Focus (Melee combat: swords) as his feat. So, to start out with, he is at +7 to hit with a longsword (+6 for normal swords) and +6 to hit with bows. If Fred is human, he'll probably choose a defensive feat (Dodge or Expertise) as his 3rd feat. If he cares to use other melee or ranged weapons, he'll have to rely on his natural power and speed. It's high, but he IS a fighter, and he would probably be more interested in a contest of skills between warriors than he is in beheading orcs, goblins, and kobolds. Maybe at 2nd level he will get Melee combat: clubs and maces to clobber them over the head with it.

Michelle Monk was sent by her teacher to fetch some sacred scrolls. She joins with Fred. She has little experience outside the monastery, but she has a few things up her sleeve that will help her out in this case. Her automatic skill is Melee Combat: unarmed. Since she has no Intelligence bonus, she gets no other combat skills as class skills. She'll have to use feats or wait until she gets an Intelligence bonus. But, Michelle is more serene than that. She prefers neutralizing threats to aggression. Michelle, however, spends her first 3 1st level skill points on Melee combat: unarmed. Her other points are distributed amongst Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble. Looking over the feats, Michelle decides that Weapon Finesse (unarmed) would be a good start. Or, if she wants more variety in weaponry, she may alternatively pick up a Weapon Proficiency (polearms or nunchaku) to gain these skills as class skills. If she is human, her bonus feat will probably be a defensive feat such as Dodge or Expertise. But, if she wants more variety, she could get another Weapon Proficiency (shuriken) to gain this it as a class skill. So, with the first option (Weapon Finesse: unarmed), she is at +7 to attack while unarmed. With the other option (Dodge or Expertise, Weapon Proficiency: type or weapon), she is at +5 to hit unarmed but has access to more weapons as class skills.

Rick Rogue is more interested in infiltrating strongholds than fighting things, but he understands the value of being able to fight his way out of a pinch. But, as a rogue, he does not get Martial Mastery. He does, however, get combat skills as class skills. Rick has learned that he prefers taking care of his enemies from a distance. So, he puts 4 of his skill ranks in Ranged combat: thrown weapons. He also puts 4 ranks in Melee combat: short blades just in case he gets that close to an enemy. The rest of his skill points are distributed amongst Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Use Rope. Rick's forte is his skill points, so while it may help to increase his combat abilities, it is not enough to warrant ignoring things like Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, Skill Focus, and Toughness. Since Rick is not proficient in the heavier armor types, and since he does not get his Uncanny Dodge ability just yet, he decides to put that feat into Dodge. If he is human, he will probably put the extra feat into something that can help him with his Hide and Move Silently skills. So, at first level, Rick is at +3 to hit in melee combat with blades (STR penalty), but he is at +7 to hit with throwing daggers.

Cletus, the elven cleric of Corellan Larethian, gains an automatic skill in Melee combat: longsword because his deity has War as one of his domains, and the longsword is his deity's favored weapon. He uses 3 skill points to become even more skilled at fighting with the longsword. He distributes his additional skill points amongst Concentration, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (religion), and Sense Motive. Cletus, while perfectly capable in combat, decides to leave Fred to being the armed fighting specialist. Instead of using a feat for combat, he is probably going to pick a metamagic feat that either increaes his turn undead ability or improves his healing capacities. So, to start Cletus is at +4 to hit with a longsword.

Now we get to Wilma. She is easy. All combat skills are cross-class skills for her, unless she decides to use a feat to gain proficiencies. That is unlikely to happen since she would much rather burn her opponents to a crisp with a maximized Fireball. However, she would like to be able to surprise opponents by whacking them in the head with her staff if they get too close. So, before choosing her skills, she takes her first feat in Weapon Proficiency (polearms). Then, she spends 2 skill points to make herself pretty good at it (probably comes from hitting Fred and Rick all the time). However, the remainder of her skill points are distributed amongst Concentration, Craft (staves), Decipher Script, Knowledge (arcana), and Spellcraft. If Wilma is human, her bonus feat is probably going to be in a metamagic feat, Toughness, or a feat that could increase her poor Reflex or Will saving throws. So, Wilma is at +1 to hit (STR penalty). Not much, but better than nothing.

So, I hope you understand where I'm getting at. If you need an example for more advanced levels, I'd be happy to give them to you.

 

[Afrodyte]

not really

If you want to go with a system like that, you really have to re-work the classes, or do away with them alltogether. A Rogue, with his high skill points, could easily keep pace with a Fighter. All he has to do is take one level of Fighter and then his cross-class combat skill doesn't have a cross-class max.

You only gain automatic skills in combat skills when you advance in the fighting class associated with it. For rogues, the combat skills are class skills anyway. Consider Rick from my example. If he wants to be better than Fred at fighting with a dagger, he is welcome to it. However, that would mean he' have to sacrifice skill points to do so.

Jack Daniel:
Actually, I have issues with the alloted skill points and class skills each class gets, but that is another can of worms. Take it from me that to make this work, I would probably go along with a plan similar to yours.