Combat balance

[Scribble]

If combat requires a specially prepared soundstage in order to make it feel exciting and different then perhaps the core rules sans environment might be lacking in some way ?

I prefer less pre-engineered balance, more swing and a sense that its possible to have fantastic non-ablative effects occur in a combat. I don't want to have to set up every conflict on a movie set to get this feel. The participants should bring the excitement, the terrain and environment are icing on the cake.

I don't see it as requiring it. I see it as icing on the cake you speak of. Characters can utilize elements of the terrain without feeling like they've sacrificed a useful action for the round.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Agree here!

3.5 didn't reward movement. Well, it did for fighters below 6th level and for wizards or other spellcasters. It didn't reward anyone who had multiple attacks, two-weapon fighters, and heavy armor wearers.

The full-attack was the death of tactical movement in 3e.

Movement in 3E sucked all around. Coming ahead of movement in the suckage department was opportunity attacks and all other fiddly bits and rules that fixated the attention to the combat grid rather than the minds of the players. They had a chance to kill the opp attack beast in 4E but they let it live.

To truly make movement worthwhile the rules need to scrap all OA's and any other gamist penalties for moving more than 5 feet. Kill all the crap about sqare occupation too. There is no sane reason why 3 normal sized men cannot form a line in a 10 foot space. Oh noes somebody isn't occupying a square!!! The horror.

 

[Scribble]

There is no sane reason why 3 normal sized men cannot form a line in a 10 foot space. Oh noes somebody isn't occupying a square!!! The horror.

yeah but can 3 normal sized men in armor fighting with melee weapons fit in that ten foot line? (with enough room to fight well.)

 

[MerricB]

This is probably a question of different tastes. I come from a euro game background, and the idea of getting your fun from mathematically swingy combat makes me want to post snobby things about the superiority of wooden cubes over plastic dolls.

A few people on this forum will understand that.

I understand! (and agree!)

Cheers!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Right, you dislike grinding hit points because you want interesting things to happen.

My objection is that casting one spell and then winning, or rolling a critical hit and then winning, or any of the other hallmarks of swingy, die-centric combat, are not "interesting things."

Maneveuring through the center of the battlefield so that you can mark the most tactically advantageous foe is interesting. Skirmishing around the edge of the battlefield so that you can flank and cut down the ideal target without getting pinned down and killed is interesting. Working as a team to line up optimal shots with artillery like area of effect spells is interesting. Providing support to the optimal members of your team at the best possible times in order to improve your side's chanes of victory is interesting.

You seem to view "interesting" as meaning "surprising," or "suddenly changing." I view interesting as "requiring significant tactical decision making." Your interesting kind of kills my interesting, and vice versa.

I enjoy the employment of tactics. Marking doesn't count unless you are lifting your leg in an attempt at intimidation. Skirmishing around the perimeter is cool.

Surpising and suddenly changes don't need to happen in every engagement. The chance that these things might happen are whats needed to keep things interesting.

The feeling of running a combat and knowing that nothing really suprising or game changing will occur and that once initiative is rolled the outcome will be decided on balanced exchanges of damage until one side runs out of hit points is kind of depressing.

 

[ExploderWizard]

yeah but can 3 normal sized men in armor fighting with melee weapons fit in that ten foot line? (with enough room to fight well.)

Have you seen any depictions of the roman legions in action?

 

[Scribble]

Have you seen any depictions of the roman legions in action?

Sure, but I find it's always easier to model an overall idea, and then adjust to specifics when needed.

First say people need room to fight properly.

Then maybe create some sort of power or feat that allows a character to fight in "tight formation" squeezing into one square without suffering the squeezing penalties. (Or varying degrees of said power that remove more and more penalties.) Your Roman Legion fighters would have this ability.

 

[MerricB]

Surpising and suddenly changes don't need to happen in every engagement. The chance that these things might happen are whats needed to keep things interesting.

The feeling of running a combat and knowing that nothing really suprising or game changing will occur and that once initiative is rolled the outcome will be decided on balanced exchanges of damage until one side runs out of hit points is kind of depressing.

Yeah; although I've found that good 4e combats don't work that way. Our last session saw a combat where some of the PCs found themselves suddenly restrained with demons approaching. When they actually rely on their mobility, this sudden change really changed the aspect of the combat, especially as it came three rounds into the combat.

Although some of the 4e conditions don't do that much to change the course of the combat, there are some that really do.

Cheers!

 

[ExploderWizard]

Yeah; although I've found that good 4e combats don't work that way. Our last session saw a combat where some of the PCs found themselves suddenly restrained with demons approaching. When they actually rely on their mobility, this sudden change really changed the aspect of the combat, especially as it came three rounds into the combat.

Although some of the 4e conditions don't do that much to change the course of the combat, there are some that really do.

Cheers!

You may be right. I just haven't seen them yet. I shall see what higher levels bring.

 

[Umbran]

Have you seen any depictions of the roman legions in action?

Yes. Now, how often did the Roman legions go up against a dragon. How often did the Roman legions so much as operate in mildly confined space (like a dungeon room, or take that formation in a bar brawl?

The legion formation was good against an army - not so much against highly mobile skimishers.