Combat Brute and Shock Trooper interaction?

[MacMathan]

Ok, both these feats are from Complete Warrior. The area I have a question about is the first advantage under Combat Brute which states: "Advancing Blows: To use this maneuver you must make a successfully bull rush attempt against a foe. During the next round, all your attacks against that foe gain a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls for each square your bull rush moved that foe."

Now combine that with the first advantage under Shock Trooper: "Directed Bull Rush: To use this maneuver, you must make a successful bull rush attempt as part of a charge. For every square you push your foe back, you may also push that foe one square to the left or right."

Do you think it is a correct interpretation, for someone with both feats, that if a charging bull rush succeeded sufficiently to push an opponent back 10' (2 squares) and thus 2 additional squares to the right or left (thus 4 squares total), as per shock trooper, that the bonus received from Combat Brute would be +4?

Or would it be based on the actual distance moved, 15' and be +3?

Or perhaps just count the backward movement and be +2?

 

[Krelios]

Well, since the feat says "each square" then I'd say it's a +4 bonus since you moved him four squares. It doesn't say the movement has to be backward, nor does it count actual distance.

 

[kjenks]

I'm foursquare behind Krelios here.

 

[Brain]

I'd go with actual distance moved, because (in my vision) bull rush goes in a straight line, not a zig-zag.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You count the squares moved. 1 square back and 1 square to the left is 1 square diagonally. To get the +4 bonus, you'd have to interpret the directed bull rush to actually mean 10ft of movement for the diagonal push. That is, literally moving your opponent in a zig-zag pattern. While I can see that intrepretation from the strict text, I don't think anyone could legitmately read it that way in context. Also, moving diagonally like that would be 15ft of movement, but only two squares. So, it appears to be only a +2 bonus.

 

[MacMathan]

Of course the funny thing is, at least by how I read it, you could indeed zig-zag with an opponent. Pushing them back 5 and to the left then back another 5 and to the right, of course it still ends up being 10' back in the end. hmmmm......

Also you can see where my indescision lays as I have received all three options as replies here, anyone else care to chime in?

What about from a balance stand point? Usually I find bull rush to be a bit under powered and rarely used as an option. Does having to take 2 additonal feats (imp. bull rush and shock trooper itself) balance with a doubling of the effect of combat brute?

 

[Stalker0]

He's giving up a standard action to get +4 to his attacks on the next round with a manuever that provokes an AOO and may or may not work. I have no problem with that.

 

[Infiniti2000]

What about from a balance stand point? Usually I find bull rush to be a bit under powered and rarely used as an option. Does having to take 2 additonal feats (imp. bull rush and shock trooper itself) balance with a doubling of the effect of combat brute?

Is a prerequisite of ST or CB improved bull rush? If so, the AoO Stalker0 mentions would not apply. Even so, giving up a full round of actions for the bonus is probably not a big deal. On the other hand giving up a single charge attack for it would be highly beneficial. In other words, if you're already in melee with someone, you're far less likely to use this tactic. So, saying you give up a full round of attacks is probably not fair. Make this PC a two-handed fighter (let's say 3 attacks per round), and he only gives up one attack for +0 on attacks and +12 damage on all three attacks (assuming power attack for 4). That is a nontrivial amount of damage. A lot of things have to go right for this to occur, and we're only using 2 squares, not 3 (+18 damage).