Combat Expertise Question

[Khelvan]

Can a fighter / Mage use that feat while casting a spell?
Do you have to use a full attack to use the feat or can one use it always while fighting defensively?

Khelvan.

 

[FreeXenon]

I think the key phrase in the Power Attack description is "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, which may imply that you activate Power Attack prior to attacking. If you do not attack then you can not activate Power Attack.

So for general spell casting that does not involve attacking I would say no.
Since you are attacking when Fighting Defensively I would say that you can.

JMMV

 

[Bagpuss]

Combat Expertise is not like Power Attack.

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

Important parts here are you need to make an attack or full attack in melee. Since you can fight defensively and make an attack action or full attack action you can use Combat Expertise.

Also unlike Power Attack, you don't get to activate it at the start of your turn, only on taking the attack action, this is important since you might move provoking AoO before you land your attack, and at that point you haven't yet gained the AC bonus.

You can probably use Combat Expertise with a melee touch attack spell in melee, but not with any ranged spells or other ranged attacks.

I'm never really sure however, since Attack is listed as a standard action, so is cast a spell. If you cast a spell that allows a melee touch attack, is the action of attacking an attack action? Or does it have to be the Attack action, for you to use this feat?

If so you wouldn't be able to use it on a Charge, or during a Flurry of Blows or several other occasions where you actual attack, but don't take the "Attack Action". Technically Fighting Defensively is an action that allows you to attack, not the Attack Action and I know you can stack Combat Expertise with it, so probably by attack action, it just means any attack.

Hypersmurf?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think the key phrase in the Power Attack description is "On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, which may imply that you activate Power Attack prior to attacking. If you do not attack then you can not activate Power Attack.

Power Attack is different to Combat Expertise.

Combat Expertise requires that you take the attack action or the full attack action. Casting a spell? No Combat Expertise. Charging? No Combat Expertise. Opening a door? No Combat Expertise. Taking the attack action? Combat Expertise away!

With Power Attack, the requirement is that you have not yet made an attack roll this round. You activate Power Attack... and then, after that, it affects any melee attacks you make that round. So you can be Power Attacking for 4 while casting a spell, or opening a door, or shooting a bow, or whatever... it just doesn't do anything unless there's a melee attack or melee damage roll involved.

You can probably use Combat Expertise with a melee touch attack spell in melee, but not with any ranged spells or other ranged attacks.

I'm never really sure however, since Attack is listed as a standard action, so is cast a spell. If you cast a spell that allows a melee touch attack, is the action of attacking an attack action? Or does it have to be the Attack action, for you to use this feat?

If so you wouldn't be able to use it on a Charge, or during a Flurry of Blows or several other occasions where you actual attack, but don't take the "Attack Action". Technically Fighting Defensively is an action that allows you to attack, not the Attack Action and I know you can stack Combat Expertise with it, so probably by attack action, it just means any attack.

You can't use Combat Expertise with a melee touch attack spell if you're delivering it as part of the Cast a Spell action - that's neither the Attack action nor the Full Attack action. You can if you were holding the charge from last round, because you're now using the Attack action to deliver the spell.

You can't use Combat Expertise on a charge (which uses the Charge action), but you can use it on a Flurry of Blows (which uses the Full Attack action). Fighting Defensively is not a separate action; 'Fighting Defensively as a standard action' is described under the Attack action, and 'Fighting Defensively as a full-round action' is described under the Full Attack action. Fighting Defensively is something you do while taking the Attack action or Full Attack action, similar to using Combat Expertise.

Note that the requirement is not taking the attack action with a melee weapon (like, say, Spring Attack); rather, it is taking the attack action (or full attack action) in melee. So you can use Combat Expertise while taking the attack action with your bow, as long as you are in melee when you do it. Two characters are engaged in melee if they are enemies of each other and either threatens the other. So if you're adjacent to the enemy hobgoblin with a falchion, and you shoot him with your bow (the attack action), you're in melee, since he threatens you; you are thus taking the attack action in melee, and can use Combat Expertise. Which might be a good plan, since he'll get an AoO given you're making a ranged attack in a threatened square...

-Hyp.

 

[Thurbane]

Is there a definitive answer on whteher you can combine Fighting Defensivley and Combat Expertise to stack the bonus to AC? I have seen this argued both ways...

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is there a definitive answer on whteher you can combine Fighting Defensivley and Combat Expertise to stack the bonus to AC? I have seen this argued both ways...

The definitive answer is in the PHB, where the description of Fighting Defensively says "This bonus stacks with the bonus from Combat Expertise".

-Hyp.

 

[Thurbane]

The definitive answer is in the PHB, where the description of Fighting Defensively says "This bonus stacks with the bonus from Combat Expertise".

-Hyp.

Definitely need some glasses then! Thanks Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Definitely need some glasses then! Thanks Hyp.

The line was left out of the SRD for some reason - I suspect that's why it's often overlooked.

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

The definitive answer is in the PHB, where the description of Fighting Defensively says "This bonus stacks with the bonus from Combat Expertise".

-Hyp.

Under the fighting defensively as a standard action but under fighting defensively as a full-round action it does not contain that text.

This is in both printings of the PHB. {Obviously where some of the confusion arises - it would have been much easier to simply put it under the feat in the first place, IMO}.

But under fighting defensively in the rules compendium it says it stacks with both the standard or full-attack versions.

This shouldn't have mattered anyway since they are "dodge" bonuses and dodge bonuses always stack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This shouldn't have mattered anyway since they are "dodge" bonuses and dodge bonuses always stack.

Right - the issue generally isn't whether or not bonuses stack; it's that Fighting Defensively is listed under the 'Normal' header of the Combat Expertise feat.

Without the note about the bonuses stacking, this frequently leads people to believe that Combat Expertise is a replacement for Fighting Defensively. So it's not necessary for the note to appear in both places (since Dodge bonuses stack anyway), but the existence of the note anywhere refutes the misconception, so it's important that it's there somewhere.

-Hyp.