Combat Rule Question: Reach Weapons/AOO

[Morbog of Ghetto D]

HELP ! this is adoosey...please give me reference in PHB, or DMG

'OKay...This has been one that has been brewing for a while.
The PCs are in a Keep with 10' wide passages. The defenders are a group of mercenaries that use Halberds and maces. The PCs need to advance down one of two passages to reach stairwells in the corner towers. The halberders are in a centralized assembly area that leads to both passages. The halberders are supposed to "control" the passages with ranks 2 men wide, and they have deployed since the Hobgoblins shouted the alert. I assume that these warriors could hold the passage and use their 5 foot step to continually "retreat" to the stair wells, only permitting 2 PCs to engage in combat...The plan is to lead the PCs to the roof where ranks of crossbowmen (rogues) will shoot them with posioned bolts.

So here is the dilema.

My "historical" Assumtion-As a reach weapon a pole arm extends an attackers reach to 10'...
Theoretically a pole arm was used/can be used to keep attackers at distance, engaging them further away, or against horsemen. (Set to recieve)...They were also used in Phalanx formations...
My belief would be that a Halberder could attack a sword wielding attacker before the footman could close in to the polarm wielding trooper...

My interpretation for 3.5 would be as follows.

1) The reach weapon allows the Halberder to engage out to 10'...
2) This could be a "delayed attack" or an AOO?
An advancing enemy, Footman would need to enter the threatened square of the Halberder, crossing through the first 5' square to engage in melee.
3) This provokes a "AOO" for the Halberder, because the advancing footman has moved through the threatened area...(Does this provoke an AOO??)
Historically, this would represent the abilty of a halbereder to "hold off" an assult. (or would this be a "delayed action"?
4) Halberder resolves AOO...or takes his delayed action
5) Footman attacks... Historically the Halberder wouldnt be able to use his weapon very affectively in Close Combat....he would need his 5ft step to withdraw and thus attack in the next round.?
6) Halberder takes a 5ft step back to use his halberd....
7) Most of the Polearms describe "cant be used against ajacent enemies" WHY?
I assume these enmies would be on the diagonal to the Halberder, and within the reach area for attack.
8) What abount ranks of Pole Arm wielders...this puts a "active" weapon of the front rank 10 feet out and an "active"weapon of the 2nd rank 5ft out... An attacker would need to brave the first and 2nd "active" weapons....

would the delayed Attack and the "set to recieve" rules be more appropriate to govern these situations...

Please see BRAVEHEART...the english charge the Scottish lines and the Scotts get their spear attacks... The scotts "delayed" their "set to recieve" attack till the english charged
the scotts attacked, and severely hampered the charge....(yes as a history buff, this was a hollywood depiction, but I believe it demonstrates the "set to recieve" concept.

UH... So I no longer know where I am....HELP me find away to kill my PCs with these polearms

 

[Blade of Desecration]

Are halberds a reach weapon? I don't have my PHB, so I can't reference, but I thought they were just two handed.
Treat this exactly like you would if they were fighting a monster (like an ogre) with a 10' reach. I don't think you get an AoO (but then again, I don't have my PHB so I can't reference), but you can always ready an action to stab anyone who gets to close.

P.S. Hey, Morbog, hows your gaming group lately? Anyone more stupid b****ing and insults from your players?

 

[Nightcloak]

HELP ! this is adoosey...please give me reference in PHB, or DMG

'OKay...This has been one that has been brewing for a while.
The PCs are in a Keep with 10' wide passages. The defenders are a group of mercenaries that use Halberds and maces. The PCs need to advance down one of two passages to reach stairwells in the corner towers. The halberders are in a centralized assembly area that leads to both passages. The halberders are supposed to "control" the passages with ranks 2 men wide, and they have deployed since the Hobgoblins shouted the alert. I assume that these warriors could hold the passage and use their 5 foot step to continually "retreat" to the stair wells, only permitting 2 PCs to engage in combat...The plan is to lead the PCs to the roof where ranks of crossbowmen (rogues) will shoot them with posioned bolts.

So here is the dilema.

We'll get you through this.

* Puts on smart hat and proceeds to suck beer through the straws... *

My "historical" Assumtion-As a reach weapon a pole arm extends an attackers reach to 10'...
Theoretically a pole arm was used/can be used to keep attackers at distance, engaging them further away, or against horsemen. (Set to recieve)...They were also used in Phalanx formations...
My belief would be that a Halberder could attack a sword wielding attacker before the footman could close in to the polarm wielding trooper...

My interpretation for 3.5 would be as follows.

This is all correct, but remember d20 rules give a little on reallity a little for the sake of ease in rules and application. That being said, we should come close with the rules as is.

1) The reach weapon allows the Halberder to engage out to 10'...

Correct.

2) This could be a "delayed attack" or an AOO?

Or both.

An advancing enemy, Footman would need to enter the threatened square of the Halberder, crossing through the first 5' square to engage in melee.

and

3) This provokes a "AOO" for the Halberder, because the advancing footman has moved through the threatened area...(Does this provoke an AOO??)
Historically, this would represent the abilty of a halbereder to "hold off" an assult. (or would this be a "delayed action"?

The footmen would provoke the readied action when they entered the first 5' square amd provoke the AoO when they left that square for the second square (next to the pikemen).

4) Halberder resolves AOO...or takes his delayed action

Have them do both in the first round. They were waiting for the assult and could plan to ready an action. Sheshkabob players!

5) Footman attacks... Historically the Halberder wouldnt be able to use his weapon very affectively in Close Combat....he would need his 5ft step to withdraw and thus attack in the next round.?

6) Halberder takes a 5ft step back to use his halberd....


7) Most of the Polearms describe "cant be used against ajacent enemies" WHY?
I assume these enmies would be on the diagonal to the Halberder, and within the reach area for attack.

I've heard that pole arms could be used in close quarters. But I've never heard an official answer from history/arms buffs. What I do know is that the core rules don't allow it. You could just make a feat called Improved Pole Arm Proficiency that allows wielders to fight with reach weapons in close quarters.

8) What abount ranks of Pole Arm wielders...this puts a "active" weapon of the front rank 10 feet out and an "active"weapon of the 2nd rank 5ft out... An attacker would need to brave the first and 2nd "active" weapons....

That was the pupose of the Phalanx. Men with reach weapons fighting in rows so mutiple attacks could be levied agains an attacker before they even got a hit on the defending line.

Please see BRAVEHEART...the english charge the Scottish lines and the Scotts get their spear attacks... The scotts "delayed" their "set to recieve" attack till the english charged
the scotts attacked, and severely hampered the charge....(yes as a history buff, this was a hollywood depiction, but I believe it demonstrates the "set to recieve" concept.

Every PC dies... But does every PC live?!

Anyway, we can do this.

Put your pike men in formation side-by-side and at least two deep. They know the players are coming, so they all ready an action to attack the first invader to enter their threatened area. For the front row, that is the square 10' in front and for the second row, that is the square 5' in front of the first row.

The PCs charge (in theory). When they enter the first squares 10' away they provoke the readied action of the first row who gets an attack, plus their initiative now jumps to just before the PCs ( ). The players continue the move and enter the next squares in front of the first line. First, they provoke an AoO fromn the front line and get attcked again. Second, they provoke the Readied action for the pikement in the second row who get their attack and also move their initiative to just before the PCs . Finally, the PCs go.

Thats 3 attacks to 1 in the first round.

Now, if these were your normal soldiers fighting, like in the movie, they would be hosed. But the players are most likely made of better stuff and the fight will continue.

On the following round, the Pikeman take a five foot step back and ready another attack. The players will take a 5' step only and not prevoke an AoO but will continually be subject two multiple attacks before they get one until the defenders are gone.

Extra Rat Bastard Goodness:

To really get them. Make the defenders 4 rows deep. Sure, only the front two rows get to attack. But after the first round, the defender go first in the initiative and just move back behind the last two rows. They can do this because a) all they did was move, and that does not provoke an AoO for the first 5' square you leave, and by the time they leave the second 5' square they are out of range (unless a PC is packing a melee weapon with rech also!)
, and b) a character can safely move through the square of an ally.

Now the last two rows of pikemen are now the front row and 15' away. That means the players have to go through the whole process of AoO and provoked actions (all 3) again to get their one attack! Rinse, repeat, and wash (the blood of the Pcs out of the flagstones )




Hope that helps!


UH... So I no longer know where I am....HELP me find away to kill my PCs with these polearms

 

[themind]

Well actually, unless it was errata'd, Halberds dont have reach. It doesn't mention reach at all in its description. If you look at other polearms in the book, ie., the Glave or the Guisarme(sp?), they say that they have reach. The picture of the Halberd is also just as big as a Greatsword.

So using a Halberd means you can only attack your adjacent squares. You can use it ready against a charge, or you can use it to trip.

 

[Morbog of Ghetto D]

adjustment...Insta Glaive

Did I say Halberd...It Was GLAIVE..theyr a unit of crazy Glaive wielders..

, Nightcloaks support of my Polarm discussion has warmed my cold orcish heart..

Dude, whats that feat that gives multiple AOO based on Dex....If my pole arm guys had that feat...PCs would be doomed...

FOOLS HAHAHA...

This is a preperatory because my resident rules lawyer will fill his diaper when is "Ubermonk" dives head first into my ranks of defenders..and gets unloaded on...

Too bad our Specialist Evoker will fire ball my Baddies and render them KIA....but he stays in the back of the party with the Sissy elf bowman..

They are gonna be sooooooooo frosted!...

 

[Blade of Desecration]

The feat you're looking for is combat reflexes.

 

[Morbog of Ghetto D]

Update-Morbog Campaign

Last session...my Number one Trouble Maker didnt make the session...

Big suprise NO Arguments....but a different phenominon was discovered.
Rules Lawer (known as R.L.)is argumentative, but he has made every session for 2 years, except for this last one. He really, really loves the game, is excited about his character and really pays attention to the storyline.

We play once a month, so I issue email updates, and "tests" to keep the game content "fresh" ...R.L. keeps track of all the details, names and events..

I found that this player really ADVANCES to game...Last session wandered in all types of directions and people were reluctant to ROLEPLAY,(crazy I know)..
We had PC death, and MY NPc Palladin said words over the slain elf....The PC cleric was just standing there!

So I spoke to R.L. last weekend when we were regrading his backyard (fun).
I explained that his abscence was really felt, and that I didnt realize his contribution till he was missing. I kind of realized that R.L. really holds the game together from a player standpoint. He and I just "fly off the handle" and seem to be very reactive concerning "interpretations"....Yes and Im pretty defensive ...

So really Im going to try to contain any frustration, keep my patience...and the game will follow suit.

So here again a RPG provides a lesson in life.. If my skills with working with people improve, I find new appreciation for a friend of 15 years, and interpersonal communciation benfits...
How could anyone say that "nothing good" can come out of rolling dice and moving miniatures...

There is a ton of PASHION for the game.....and I wish it were more contageous...
Ever notive that its cyclical?....Some times its this quiet player, that all of a sudden develops the game, or makes it cooler.

 

[Mr_GrinReaper]

Reach weapons grant Aoo's as normal, but unfortunatly, I don't have my PhB either, but I do have the rouge/bard hb, and in it I know they talk about reach weapon sneak attacks+attacks of opportunity, so I'm pretty sure its possible, in fact, I am completely sure, and you could always use the phlanx (drat spelling) fighting feat to do fun stuff...

 

[Blade of Desecration]

Hey, Mr. GrinReaper, you're finally online! You get my PMs back at WotC?

 

[Mr_GrinReaper]

yep, got all'um, O-O