Combatants as Cover & Ref Saves

[Dr. Zoom]

Right. I agreed with all of that earlier. I do concede that I too narrowly used the term "line of effect." My only real point is that these two things, cover and line of effect, do not cancel each other out, unless the cover is total cover. That is why the section on reflex save cover bonuses says that the bonus applies against a fireball. I never argued that partial cover blocks line of effect.

 

[kreynolds]

Right. I agreed with all of that earlier.

I don't think you understand what I was saying, because you really shouldn't be agreeing with me.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

A cover bonus makes no sense in this situation. You don't aim the spread or area effect of a fireball or lighning bolt like you do with an arrow. If the spread or area effect gets into your square, you're screwed.

I don't agree with that.

If you say that, then there can be no such thing as cover against a fireball. It either gets into your square or it does not. What I am saying is this. If you are behind an overturned table and a fireball detonates between you and the overturned table, you get a bonus to your reflex saving throw against the fireball based on how much cover you had at the time. The table certainly does not block the line of effect for the fireball spread. You just have a little bit better chance of avoiding some of the damage. The cover section also says that if you have 9/10 cover, you get the benefit of evasion. How could this be if what you say here is correct?

 

[kreynolds]

If you say that, then there can be no such thing as cover against a fireball.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

How could this be if what you say here is correct?

Well, it couldn't be! What you have just witnessed is me shoving my foot down my throat because I wasn't paying attention to my own argument! So take that! Hahaha!!!!

 

[Stalker0]

I don't agree with that.

If you say that, then there can be no such thing as cover against a fireball. It either gets into your square or it does not. What I am saying is this. If you are behind an overturned table and a fireball detonates between you and the overturned table, you get a bonus to your reflex saving throw against the fireball based on how much cover you had at the time. The table certainly does not block the line of effect for the fireball spread. You just have a little bit better chance of avoiding some of the damage. The cover section also says that if you have 9/10 cover, you get the benefit of evasion. How could this be if what you say here is correct?

If you have the appropriate cover, then yes you can get bonuses against the fireball. For instance, I'm behind a guy. A fireball is released. Since the fireball is not blocked by anything, no matter where I dodge, the fireball is going to hit and I'm going to take damage. But let's say I'm peeking out behind a solid wall and a fireball goes off. I could duck back behind the wall, which is reflected in the bonus to reflex save. If my whole body was close enough to the wall (9/10 cover) then with a successful save I could get my whole body behind that wall and take no damage (improved evasion).

I must admit though, that my argument brings up another interesting point. I'm saying that cover only applies when the cover can successfully block the attack. Well then, brillant energy weapons could ignore most cover. That's a different debate, but an interesting side effect.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

I'm saying that cover only applies when the cover can successfully block the attack.

If by "block the attack" you mean block the line of effect, you are wrong. No cover blocks the line of effect except total cover. A creature will not block the line of effect of a fireball, but it can certainly provide cover, just like an overturned table. The PH explicitly says this on page 133 in the Cover section.

 

[Magus Coeruleus]

kreynolds: if you don't think you can have cover against area spells like fireball, what is the point of having differing amounts of cover provide reflex save bonuses, and 9/10 cover providing the effect of having evasion? Reflex saves modified by cover are almost always going to be related to area effects, and evasion in particular is pertains to area effects.

PHB, p. 133: "Cover Reflex Save Bonus: Table 8-9: Cover lists the Reflex save bonuses for different degrees of cover. Add this bonus to Reflex saves against attacks that affect an area, such as a red dragon's breath or a fireball. For nine-tenths cover, you also effectively have improved evasion. These bonuses, however, only apply to attacks that originate or spread out from a point on the other side of the cover."

To all: That said, I can see how creatures might not provide cover for each other when it comes to area effects, if one is not directly behind. You'll notice that most of the example cases in table 8-9 seem to suggest standing right behind the cover. The exception is "behind a creature of same size" as one of the conditions for half cover. Here's the real question, in my mind: Do you need to be right behind someone (or a wall, for that matter) to take advantage of cover? If you have someone five feet away, the area effect may swell right around them and smack into you from all sides, unimpeded. By contrast, standing right behind someone protects you since they acts as a direct shield. If this is correct, however, then you could also argue that if you are behind a wall, but not right behind it, and an area effect sweeps behind the wall, that you get no cover because you are too far away from it.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds: if you don't think you can have cover against area spells like fireball, what is the point of having differing amounts of cover provide reflex save bonuses, and 9/10 cover providing the effect of having evasion? Reflex saves modified by cover are almost always going to be related to area effects, and evasion in particular is pertains to area effects.

You have a short attention span, don't you?

 

[Stalker0]

Dr.Zoom- "The only cover that blocks line of effect is total cover."


This is wrong. Page 150 of the PH. "A line of effect is canceled by a solid barrier."

The cover bonus to reflex saves reflects being able to use that solid barrier to avoid bursts attacks. In that situation Dr. Zoom, I totally agree, a solid table should provide some cover, reflecting the idea that you could duck somewhat under the table and avoid most of the fireball. However, the diagram on page 149 clearly shows that people do not block the line of effect for a burst spell. It contines on past them, while it stops at the solid walls. So people do not provide a cover bonus to reflex in that situaiton.

 

[Umbran]

So people do not provide a cover bonus to reflex in that situaiton.

Except the table and text on page 133 explicitly states that they do.

Blockage is not all or nothing - it can be partial - thus only getting half-cover. The diagram does not prove that people don't provide a cover bonus.