Combining Four-Color To Fantasy w/3E: How-To, Balance, Pot. Problems, etc . . .

[Forrester]

I want to begin by saying this is *NOT* a bitching thread. 4CTF is probably the coolest .pdf I've bought, and I can't wait to figure out how to integrate it with my 3E game.

For one, I am anxiously awaiting the party's reaction when kobolds and halflings and other migdet-types start picking up large wagons or Huge Greatswords and smacking the hell out of them . Mighty Lifting is SO F***ING COOL. I also have a bunch of other ideas . . . but I'm looking for more. Hence the "How-To" phrase in the subject title.

I've also been looking at some of the power costs and I'm wondering whether some tweaking might be necessary. I'd like to hear from others who plan on combining 3E and 4CTF, not to mention RangerWickett and the other designers about what playtesting they did in the area.

And when I say "tweak", I mean "tweak" -- these are not big changes or problems, though it's possible that in the hands of a bunch of munchkins they might add up to one.

Just to get things started:

1) The "Blindsight" power costs a total of six points -- and it's a 60' radius. I have to say that I find this a little worrisome, in that this power allows the user to constantly ignore Displacement, Mirror Image, Mislead, and any and all illusion spells. Not a big deal in a SuperPowers game (for which I think it's appropriately costed), but in a 3E game, I'd be concerned. Maybe knock it down to 30', or bump up the Blindsight cost to 4 or 5.

2) I would be very, very, very wary of applying the gold pieces in magic items/Hero Point conversion scales to Hero Points. As has been discussed in several threads in General RPG Discussion, fighting classes get a lot more of their power from magic items at high levels than do magic-using classes. My initial inclination would be to give fighter-based characters more Hero Points than the table suggests, and magic-based characters, a few less . . . I know that's vague, but I'm concerned about the 10th+ level mage with 39k less money than expected buying the Haste superpower with his 12 pts.

Question for Morrus & Ranger & the others -- can I ask how much you playtested this part?

3) Speaking of Haste . . . 12 pts is a lot, but it still might be too low in 3E. A level-and-a-half of Hero gets you permanently Hasted . . . admittedly, when you're high enough level to be able to buy Haste (9th), you'll probably be Hasted during most of your major combats anyway, but I'm still suspicious of this one, especially with spellcasters.

4) General question for the playtesters -- how does a 5th level Hero/1st level fighter stack up against a 6th level Hero, generally? Didja test much of this within 3E, or was it more along the lines of just within-game? I want to start rocking out monster Heroes against the party, and I'm wondering about balance . . . are the Heroes going to be tough enough to whup 'em?

 

[RangerWickett]

Heya Forrester.

The first playtest game we had involved a 16th level sorcerer against a 16th level version of spiderman. We realized that all of the powers were over-priced, and that we were being way too conservative. A 16th-level spiderman managed to punch the sorcerer once for 1d3+8 damage, and then failed his Reflex save against a fireball, which took him out in one hit.

Well, you've got quite the list there, so let me think where to start. Once I'm done, you're probably going to think that we didn't do enough playtesting, but I'm confident that the core powers are balanced. Our initial balancing sessions were done to make sure things like super speed, heightened ability scores, and energy attacks were balanced. It took us a while, but we got those pinned down finally. The farther you stray from strict numerical powers, the more 'iffy' it can be. Telekinesis can be great in some instances, useless in others, and we simply didn't have enough time to do as much playtesting as I would've liked.

Some powers are more clearly balanced for fantasy play (like energy resistance; in a modern setting, different types of energy are rarer, so I posted a possible solution on the Nat20 forum, which would reduce the cost of having resistance to different types of energy if you're playing a modern game), while other powers are more balanced for modern superheroes (like blindsight). When in doubt, I had a few formulae and guidelines for converting spells into powers, and double-checking their balance that way, but yeah, there'll be a few times when things don't work out for all genres.

1. Blindsight. We checked this primarily against invisibility and invisible creatures, but we did overlook how prevalent other illusions are in standard D&D. I would up the cost for this enhancement to 6 (2). This would make the total cost 10 (5). That way it usually can't be taken until 7th level, and it costs more than a whole level's worth of HrP to acquire. Though you can't get true seeing as a spell until 9th level, this doesn't have all the nifty abilities that true seeing grants, so the cost should be fair.

2. Remember that the table should only be used in campaigns where magic items are needed to balance party strength. You wouldn't use this table in, say, Star Wars. However, I think you're not quite correct in your assessment that fighters get more value. Without magic items, spellcasters have sickeningly low AC and are very fragile. Plus, magic items like wands and staves really help out if the DM likes to throw more than a few challenges at a party each day. Otherwise, the spellcasters run out of firepower early, and have to hide the rest of the day.

The table's actually slightly underpowered, since we wanted to make sure no one managed to find a loophole we missed and end up with a gajillion Hero Points, or somehow take a lot of small powers and end up too strong. So I think it should work well for any class. I might even come up with some standard super power advancements for different classes if I have the time, kind of like how the DMG lists standard magic items.

3. Again, hasted spellcasters are balanced the same way that they are in core D&D, namely by the fact that they don't have enough spells for it to be too overpowered, at least as long as there are multiple challenges each day. If you prefer to just have one or two large encounters and no small encounters each day in game time, you might want to increase the cost as high as 16. But with that cost, it becomes very close to a worthless power. Having to devote more than a whole level to the ability is quite a hit in power.

4. At least out of my group, only two of the playtesters ever frequent the boards, and then only rarely. I'll see if they want to swing by and comment, but I'll give my insight. Also, if anyone in Nemmerle or Russ's group wants to comment, they can feel free.

Since I'm mostly a D&D player, my thoughts and playtests mostly turned toward fantasy style play. I'd say that some powers might be marginally less useful in a modern setting (like heightened strength, since melee combat is rarer, and guns are more common), and the majority of the powers are balanced for fantasy.

Our goal was to make sure that the Hero class (and all accompanying powers) were balanced with the other core classes. Otherwise, there was little point using levels at all.

How effective the powers are depend on how well you use them. Taking energy attack super powers makes you more like an archer or a sorcerer than a melee fighter, so play a Fighter/Hero (blaster) as more of a fighter-mage. If you want straight combat ability, focus on powers like super strength, heightened strength, invulnerability, and heightened defenses. A rogue is better off having flight and super agility than energy drain and telepathic charm (though that might be a cool idea for an assassin).

My advice is that once you've come up with a power set, look at the whole creature objectively. If you just saw a monster with these abilities, and no mention of super powers, how would you use it? Don't just put any random super power and use them the same way you always would, or else the monster will be underpowered.

Also, if you're just making monsters or critters for a one-shot fight, make sure to use the Reduced Cost for NPCs rules. It can be a little bit of a pain to have to use a different set of numbers, especially if a minor monster ends up as a main character, but the balance works better if you do.

I hope that helps. Feel free to ask me more if you want.

(By the way, do you have Tournaments, Fairs, & Taverns? I had an homage to one of your posts in there. At least, you did have the naming your character thread, right?)

 

[Forrester]

(By the way, do you have Tournaments, Fairs, & Taverns? I had an homage to one of your posts in there. At least, you did have the naming your character thread, right?)

Ah yes . . . the elvish game of Nyming'ur Kir'uctur. I missed that the first time through .

The problem with Haste is that high-level spellcasters have two or three dozen spells, not to mention wands and scrolls and whatnot. I really don't think there's much of a "running out of spells" problem usually. And if GMs allow casters to cast spells out of an Anti-Magic sphere (which is "officially" the correct ruling, supposedly), mages just found a whole new way to be *extraordinarily* cheaty.

Finally, we noted on the other threads that a 9th or 10th level fighter *with* gear is probably the equal of a 15th level fighter *without* gear. Doing the CR math, this means that a high level fighter gets at *least* 75% of his fighting ability from his magic items, if not more. (Technically, all else being equal, a 15th level fighter should be able to take on eight 9th level fighters, assuming he has the "correct" amount of equipment). It's very doubtful that the same is true for mages.

Gear is extraordinarily important for fighters. For mages . . . well, a 12th level mage casts an Empowered Endurance, an Empowered Cat's Grace, Mage Armor, maybe (if the DM allows it) a Persistent Shield or Expeditious Retreat, and he's got MORE than enough hp/AC/manueverability to deal with many threats. And he still has plenty of boomity spells left. If he manages to get a Fly and/or Improved Invis and/or Haste off before combat begins, he's going to be especially safe. This is all without loot . . . his buddy the 12th level fighter is going to be in much more trouble without his magical equipment.

I don't think this is a big problem in normal advancement -- that is, if a wizard wants to take a level or two of Hero -- but it could be. After all, in that instance the wiz is sacrificing some spellcasting advancement, and that's big.

I think it's potentially a much bigger problem if the DM gives Hero Points instead of treasure, and if I were a DM using that system (which, in fact, I will not be), I would keep a careful eye on balance problems.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, we did only have about a dozen playtesters for the book, not nearly enough, but the best we could field. If you do have problems with it, by all means, give us feedback, and if there's enough weight of people saying it's an issue, we might end up errata'ing it.