D&D 5E 'Combo' Spells to increase action economy, bypass cocentration

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
How about something like:

Nystul Aura Swap (level 2)
Casting Time: Action
Duration: Instant
Range: Touch
When you touch a willing target, you may transfer any and all spells up to 2nd level affecting you that do not have a duration of Instantaneous or Permanent or are under the active concentration of someone else. Any spell without concentration or that you are concentrating on may be passed on, including passing the concentration requirement to the target. They assume full control over those spells as if they had cast them.
You may cast this spell using a higher level slot. This will allow you to pass spells of levels up to the slot used.

That may fit the narrative better. My concern is doing things outside combat where action economy isn't as a great a cost like passing an 8 hour Hex of Hunter's Mark to another person. But even there it's not too bad.

Nope. The fighter that doesn't use any magic at all. How the heck does he know how to concentrate on any kind of magic in the first place? If it was restricted to passing the concentration spell to other spell casters it would at least make sense narratively. But the guy that doesn't do magic doesn't suddenly start knowing how to concentrate on magic enough to keep it up and running.

So the spell would actually need to be doing 2 things.
1. Allowing the spell to be transferred
2. Giving the magicless fighter the information needed to concentrate on a magic spell.

Seeing that the 2nd part isn't mentioned as being done anywhere in the spell is the disconnect. Also if magic can allow non-magic users to concentrate on spells then can't magic allow non-magic users to start casting spells too? Is that really a road we want to go down?
 

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mellored

Legend
Nope. The fighter that doesn't use any magic at all. How the heck does he know how to concentrate on any kind of magic in the first place? If it was restricted to passing the concentration spell to other spell casters it would at least make sense narratively. But the guy that doesn't do magic doesn't suddenly start knowing how to concentrate on magic enough to keep it up and running.

So the spell would actually need to be doing 2 things.
1. Allowing the spell to be transferred
2. Giving the magicless fighter the information needed to concentrate on a magic spell.

Seeing that the 2nd part isn't mentioned as being done anywhere in the spell is the disconnect. Also if magic can allow non-magic users to concentrate on spells then can't magic allow non-magic users to start casting spells too? Is that really a road we want to go down?
A fighter has no problem concentrating on magic.

"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration." - DMG 141

In fact, ring of spell storing already let's you transfer any spell (and concentration) to a fighter (up to 5th level).

So I still see no problem with a non-item version of it.
 
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5ekyu

Hero
Nope. The fighter that doesn't use any magic at all. How the heck does he know how to concentrate on any kind of magic in the first place? If it was restricted to passing the concentration spell to other spell casters it would at least make sense narratively. But the guy that doesn't do magic doesn't suddenly start knowing how to concentrate on magic enough to keep it up and running.

So the spell would actually need to be doing 2 things.
1. Allowing the spell to be transferred
2. Giving the magicless fighter the information needed to concentrate on a magic spell.

Seeing that the 2nd part isn't mentioned as being done anywhere in the spell is the disconnect. Also if magic can allow non-magic users to concentrate on spells then can't magic allow non-magic users to start casting spells too? Is that really a road we want to go down?

yes, but, a caster using Glyph at 3rd can create "glyph sticks" (cost 200 gp per cast) to store any single target or aoe spell and then hand that stick to the fighter. If that fighter breaks that stick (if that is the trigger) they then are affected by the spell and if it was a concentration, concentration is completely bypassed and the spell runs its full duration. With the broad flexibility in triggers it can even be setup to enable the fighter to "effectively" in many cases use the glyph effect on someone else.

So, while yes, you can rule that the fighter does not have the ability to concentrate on the spells gifted, that does not lead immediately to the auto-failure of a spell requiring concentration on a fighter if treated as "cast by" that fighter.

if you really look at it, the ability to side-step the concentration limit for a great many such spells in the game is already there, in Glyph of warding, providing the flow of gold for components (and availability of components) lets it be used.

Since, frankly, many of the "warm-up" encounters are not (in the typical encounter day assumptions) that challenging as to make this concentration limit that noticeable, my bet is many times the added expense of "bypass concentration with glyphs" for the major encounters is easily manageable.

DISCLAIMER: No i have not searched thru Sage Al etc for any rulings that restrict more the use of glyphs as de facto 200gp "spell batteries" that can bypass concentration limits.
 
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FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
yes, but, a caster using Glyph at 3rd can create "glyph sticks" (cost 200 gp per cast) to store any single target or aoe spell and then hand that stick to the fighter. If that fighter breaks that stick (if that is the trigger) they then are affected by the spell and if it was a concentration, concentration is completely bypassed and the spell runs its full duration. With the broad flexibility in triggers it can even be setup to enable the fighter to "effectively" in many cases use the glyph effect on someone else.

So, while yes, you can rule that the fighter does not have the ability to concentrate on the spells gifted, that does not lead immediately to the auto-failure of a spell requiring concentration on a fighter if treated as "cast by" that fighter.

if you really look at it, the ability to side-step the concentration limit for a great many such spells in the game is already there, in Glyph of warding, providing the flow of gold for components (and availability of components) lets it be used.

Since, frankly, many of the "warm-up" encounters are not (in the typical encounter day assumptions) that challenging as to make this concentration limit that noticeable, my bet is many times the added expense of "bypass concentration with glyphs" for the major encounters is easily manageable.

DISCLAIMER: No i have not searched thru Sage Al etc for any rulings that restrict more the use of glyphs as de facto 200gp "spell batteries" that can bypass concentration limits.

Glyph of Warding takes an hour to cast and the item it's cast on cannot be moved more than 10 ft from where it was cast. There's just to many "restrictions" on that spell to mention it as a meaningful way to bypass the concentration. Can it? Yes. Can it do so effectively? no.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
A fighter has no problem concentrating on magic.

"Some magic items allow the user to cast a spell from the item. The spell is cast at the lowest possible spell level, doesn't expend any of the user's spell slots, and requires no components, unless the item's description says otherwise. The spell uses its normal casting time, range, and duration, and the user of the item must concentrate if the spell requires concentration." - DMG 141

In fact, ring of spell storing already let's you transfer any spell (and concentration) to a fighter (up to 5th level).

So I still see no problem with a non-item version of it.

Magic items granting spellcasting and concentration are easily parsed down in the fiction as the fighter concentrating on the magic item to make it work and it essentially carries out the "magic".

So saying magic items do it doesn't solve the issue. They are easily explainable within the fiction. A spell being "passed off" to the fighter so he can concentrate on it still doesn't have any kind of explanation. Perhaps if it required a ring that the fighter wore and that ring is what was "temporarily" enchanted to handle the spell and the fighter simply had to "use" and "concentrate" on it the same as he would use a magic item as I described previously.

But to do it without any kind of object or "effect" or something that's essentially carrying out the magic that the fighter then "uses" as he would a magic item doesn't make sense.
 

mellored

Legend
Magic items granting spellcasting and concentration are easily parsed down in the fiction as the fighter concentrating on the magic item to make it work and it essentially carries out the "magic".

So saying magic items do it doesn't solve the issue. They are easily explainable within the fiction. A spell being "passed off" to the fighter so he can concentrate on it still doesn't have any kind of explanation. Perhaps if it required a ring that the fighter wore and that ring is what was "temporarily" enchanted to handle the spell and the fighter simply had to "use" and "concentrate" on it the same as he would use a magic item as I described previously.

But to do it without any kind of object or "effect" or something that's essentially carrying out the magic that the fighter then "uses" as he would a magic item doesn't make sense.
So... if the spell was put into say.. a spell orb?

Nystul's Spell Orb (level 2)
Casting Time: 1 Reaction
Range: 30'
Duration: Instantaneous
When a creature casts a spell of second level or lower that you can see, you can bind the magical energy into a glowing orb of force. The spell does not take effect, and is instead bound in a fragile magic item that appears in the possession of the caster, with the DC, spell level, and variables captured at the time of casting. Any creature can use the orb to cast the contained spell, chosing a new target and maintaining concentration.
The spell inside will instantly take effect if it takes any damage or is used in a ranged attack, dealing 1 force damage. If someone holding the orb takes damage, they must make a Con saving throw with a DC equal to half the damage they took, or the orb breaks. The orb is the right size to be used in a sling and can be launched 120', or thrown 30' and deals 1 force damage (+dex, as normal).
A triggered spell uses the orb's location, and randomly choses from any valid target within range (self spells have a range of 1'). If the triggered spell requires concentration, it lasts 1 round.
If the creature regains the spell slot (or it's equivalent) used for either this spell or the captured spell, the the orb disappears without having triggered. A creature may choose to not regain the slots when they rest, keeping the spell orb indefinitely. Once used or broken, the orb disappears.
At higher level: For each additional spell level beyond 2, increase the maximum spell level by 1.
 

Uchawi

First Post
I would approach the martial side as well, in regards to removing limiters on extra attack (including character level for multicasting). There is a reason concentration exists in 5E so you have to consider the big picture on how it impacts all the classes.
 

FrogReaver

As long as i get to be the frog
So... if the spell was put into say.. a spell orb?

Nystul's Spell Orb (level 2)
Casting Time: 1 Reaction
Range: 30'
Duration: Instantaneous
When a creature casts a spell of second level or lower that you can see, you can bind the magical energy into a glowing orb of force. The spell does not take effect, and is instead bound in a fragile magic item that appears in the possession of the caster, with the DC, spell level, and variables captured at the time of casting. Any creature can use the orb to cast the contained spell, chosing a new target and maintaining concentration.
The spell inside will instantly take effect if it takes any damage or is used in a ranged attack, dealing 1 force damage. If someone holding the orb takes damage, they must make a Con saving throw with a DC equal to half the damage they took, or the orb breaks. The orb is the right size to be used in a sling and can be launched 120', or thrown 30' and deals 1 force damage (+dex, as normal).
A triggered spell uses the orb's location, and randomly choses from any valid target within range (self spells have a range of 1'). If the triggered spell requires concentration, it lasts 1 round.
If the creature regains the spell slot (or it's equivalent) used for either this spell or the captured spell, the the orb disappears without having triggered. A creature may choose to not regain the slots when they rest, keeping the spell orb indefinitely. Once used or broken, the orb disappears.
At higher level: For each additional spell level beyond 2, increase the maximum spell level by 1.

Much better IMO. Still think it's way it's way to strong but from a conceptual standpoint it's very well designed now IMO
 

Iry

Hero
Nope. The fighter that doesn't use any magic at all. How the heck does he know how to concentrate on any kind of magic in the first place? If it was restricted to passing the concentration spell to other spell casters it would at least make sense narratively. But the guy that doesn't do magic doesn't suddenly start knowing how to concentrate on magic enough to keep it up and running.
Someone can simply teach him how to concentrate. It's as simple as retroactively saying "Me and the Wizard have been practicing this move for the last couple of weeks". Or, if you are feeling like a dick about it, you could force the players to declare they are practicing and then make them wait until next level up. The same amount of time it would require to just take a level of Wizard. =P
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I still think anyone advocating a "Nystul approach" needs to explain WHY they're suggesting their new spell.

Is is because...
1. They like the way d20 casters could dominate battlefields and buff everyone to demigod statistics? If so, great, please proceed.
2. Spells like Nystuls this or Simbuls that existed in d20, so why not in 5e? Because it's a different game and adding in this kind of capability breaks the game.
3. Because they want to explore balanced ways to nudge the limits on concentration in 5e.

Only for 3. am I aboard, and the way to do it is to drop the generic combo idea - that's never gonna be balanced (or horribly underpowered for every combo but the strongest).

Instead the solution must be to handcraft individual combos. Or, if that's too restrictive, try to curate the spells available for combination to keep down the risk of power abuse.

Myself, I suggest spells with red ratings.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app
 

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