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<blockquote data-quote="Dan'L" data-source="post: 5121178" data-attributes="member: 68954">I'm going to try breaking this into two parts, and see if that helps.&nbsp; The first is the fluff:I will also note that the same source states that they &quot;are not magic in the traditional sense&quot; and supplies the caveat that &quot;some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals.&quot;&nbsp; This can easily be interpreted in the first part that there is a magic to martial source powers, just not &quot;traditional.&nbsp; And in the second part, &quot;beyond... ordinary&quot; sounds a lot like &quot;supernatural&quot; to me.&nbsp; I'm not suggesting that you're wrong to want fighters and rogues and such to have their powers rooted in the heroically mundane, I'm just not so sure the game makes the distinction that you do about strength and willpower being mutually exclusive to supernatural magic.***In what I see as a second, separate issue is the actual game mechanics of the power.&nbsp; It has always felt a bit &quot;off&quot; to me that the power allows forced movement without an attack roll, particularly in the heroic tier.&nbsp; I would think that some sort of attack v. will (or maybe ref) with hit of pull with a secondary attack v. AC for damage would be more in line with game balance.&nbsp; I know that, as a player, I'd feel cheated to have a monster do a force move on my PC without having to &quot;hit&quot; one of my defenses first.-Dan'L</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Dan'L, post: 5121178, member: 68954"] I'm going to try breaking this into two parts, and see if that helps. The first is the fluff: I will also note that the same source states that they "are not magic in the traditional sense" and supplies the caveat that "some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals." This can easily be interpreted in the first part that there [I]is[/I] a magic to martial source powers, just not "traditional. And in the second part, "beyond... ordinary" sounds a lot like "supernatural" to me. I'm not suggesting that you're wrong to want fighters and rogues and such to have their powers rooted in the heroically mundane, I'm just not so sure the game makes the distinction that you do about strength and willpower being mutually exclusive to supernatural magic. *** In what I see as a second, separate issue is the actual game mechanics of the power. It has always felt a bit "off" to me that the power allows forced movement without an attack roll, particularly in the heroic tier. I would think that some sort of attack v. will (or maybe ref) with hit of pull with a secondary attack v. AC for damage would be more in line with game balance. I know that, as a player, I'd feel cheated to have a monster do a force move on my PC without having to "hit" one of my defenses first. -Dan'L [/QUOTE]

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