Command, Mental attribues, and Saving throws

[Minigiant]

In the past, an attack on the mind was a...

1) generic Spell save
2) A will saving throw based on your Wisdom
3) a psionic defense
4) A will defense based on the higher of your Wisdom or Charisma

but now... now we have 3... count 'em 4 no.. 3! 3 mental saving throws. Unpresidented! What is an Charisma save? What kind of sudden assualts against your intellect to force a Int save? And how well would they be distributed to make one of them not the "sonic resistance" of saving throws.

Charms: Wisdom. The "Hot to Play" document says that Wisdom deals with charms. Charms change the way the subject is viewed or perceived. That would involve the perception aspect of Wisdom.

Compulsions: Charisma. The document also states that Charisma would deal with many compulsions. Makes sense as a most compulsions place a more obedient personality in the target's mind. So the old and new personality would be fighting for control of the target. Therefore Command and Hold Person really should be a Charisma save.

Illusions: This is a tough one but it seems like there are 3 kinds of illusions.

• External Illusions: Wisdom. These would be illusions that those that encounter it would have to passively perceive the falseness of the
• Phantasms. Intelligence. Unlike External illusions, illusions placed within the mind like phantasmal killer cannot be ignored. So disbelief would be Intelligence based as it would active.
• Shadow spells: Wisdom. This one is a tough one but I believe their saving would be passive much like an external illusion.

Fear: Fear is tough, it is Wisdom to use willpower to overcome the fear or Charisma to use you personality to take control of yourself.

Spiritual/Soul attack: Wisdom. Attacks on the spirit or soul would be Wisdom based as the divine is wisdom based.

Maze: Intelligence The maze spell is transportation into a puzzle plane.

Psionic Attacks: Each type of psionic attack
(Ego Whip, Id Insinuation, Mind Thrust, Mind Blast, Psychic Crush) would nvoke would have a different save... maybe. Mostly Intelligence and Charisma as they are attacks on your logic or personality. Probably Intelligence as psions are now Intelligence based. So psionic attack could be Intelligence based except Telepathic attack which are Charisma based.

Madness/Insanity/Confusion: Charisma. D&D's insanity is more or less a compulsion. The original personality has be replaced by another less stable one.

Thoughts? Am I missing something?

 

[Ahnehnois]

It's an interesting question. It depends on how those ability scores are defined.

5e appears to have gone with a more strictly perceptual version of wisdom and does not mention willpower. It also seems to heavily emphasize the charisma as strength of personality angle. Intelligence is relatively easy to define.

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I definitely like the compulsion stuff attacking charisma. Those charisma-dump fighter types should be very vulnerable to mind control, where as a charismatic hero should perservere. I'm a little surprised charm and compulsion are separated, though I can see where being charmed (and still having free will) could boil down to you figuring out you're being charmed.

While D&D insanity should be like actual insanity; most of the serious psychotic disorders can be seen as perceptual abnormalities and should be looked at in terms of wisdom. Of course, mental health has a strong interplay with all three mental abilities.

Fear is tough. Sometimes people can change their perceptions of the object of their fear and the surrounding situation. Other times personal conviction can plow through the effects of fear. It really can go either way.

Probably Intelligence as psions are now Intelligence based.

They are? Where did this news come from?

And, if it's true, it's stupid. Psions are mental characters. All mental ability scores should be used for psionic mechanics (and, if anything, Int is the least obvious one to involve).