Commoner vs. Expert

Great NPCs! For me, the difference between a Commoner and an Expert is that the expert has a broader, more cosmopolitan life experience. If a commoner goes to the big city and starts getting exposed to different influences, he can start taking Expert levels. Many of my NPCs have one or two levels of commoner or expert before their PC-style classes. This lets me give them skills that might not be expected (like Handle Animal for a wizard).

I like the commoner class because it lets me have cool characters like Gertrude. She's a Commoner10 in my game. She's about 60 years old, useless in combat (naturally) but since Intimidate checks are opposed by a level check, she is unimpressed by the PCs. In fact the town's mayor (an 8th level Aristocrat) is intimidated by her.

Some people are just like that :)
 

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Kyra Elf Hunter; Expert L3

Kyra Elf Hunter; Expert L3; HD 3d6-3; hp 8; Init +1; Spd 30 ft; AC 14; SQ Immune to sleep, +2 vs. Enchantments, Low Light Vision; BAB +2; Melee: Dagger +2 (1d4/ crit 19-20 x2); Ranged: Longbow +5 (1d8/ crit x3 /100 ft); AL NG; SV Fort +1, Ref +2, Will +4; Str 10, Dex 13, Con 9, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 10.

Skills & Feats: (42 points)
Appraise 0 (+1, +3 bows)
Craft: Bowyer 6 (+7)
Heal 3 (+6)
Hide 5
Knowledge Nature 0 (+3)
Listen 4 (+7)
Move Silently 5
Search 5 (+8)
Spot 4 (+7)
Survival 6 (+9, +11 Track)
Use Rope 4 (+5)
Self-Sufficient and Track;
Languages: Common, Elven, & Sylvan.

Equipment: Arrows (20, Masterwork) in a Quiver, Artisan Tools, Backpack with waterskin, Bedroll, Dagger, Flint and Steel, Longbow (Masterwork), Rope (50ft), Sacks (3), & Studded Leather Armor;

Age 127, CR 2

Kyrah stands still as she watches the buck approach the stream. He lowers his head to drink. A rustling causes it to look up just in time for the arrow to strike it square in the chest.

Kyrah quickly steps forward through the bushes that concealed her. She moves the carcass away from the stream, so there will be little blood to frighten other animals. The meat will be a bit tough due to the buck’s age, but his coat is still in good shape. She considers where in the Great Forest she is.

Yes, luck is with her. There is a tanner less than a day’s journey from here who will pay well for this hide. He might pay very well if wands fall right. She packs what she can in her game sacks, and buries the rest. She does not want to attract something she cannot handle the next time she passes this way. Although, Lady Nature alone knows when that will be.
 

The origional concept was for both the commoner and the expert to be Bowyers (Bow and arrow makers). They ended up developing in different ways.

It makes no sense (to me) for a crafter to not be able to use what they make. The "elven commoner" gets proficiency with bows (and longsword, and rapier as a matter of fact), so I felt a Bowyer was a good choice.

However a "bowyer commoner" would not do well in combat, due to low AC and hp. (Although they would use a bow to defend themselves or their community, if the need arose.)

Also the "bowyer commoner" would not do well as a hunter, because of skill limitations. (Commoners have Spot and Listen as class skills, which is one of the few advantages they have. However, Knowledge Nature, Search, and Survival are not class skills.) If they used a feat to augmant their hunting, they would need to loose either Skill Focus Bowyer or Point Blank shot.

The only other function I could see to them using a bow, is to teach others, which is what I have the character do.

Kyra Elf Hunter Expert, turned out differently. She has the flexibility to take the skills to be a hunter. As a result I gave her Feats and Equiptment to enhance her hunting, rather than her bowmaking. (Although, she can make/repair bows and arrows if she needs to.)

The remarkable difference to me is that, while both started from the same craft: One is a significant, and highly social, member of a community. The other is a wandering loner.
 
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MavrickWeirdo said:
It makes no sense (to me) for a crafter to not be able to use what they make. The "elven commoner" gets proficiency with bows (and longsword, and rapier as a matter of fact), so I felt a Bowyer was a good choice.

However a "bowyer commoner" would not do well in combat, due to low AC and hp. (Although they would use a bow to defend themselves or their community, if the need arose.)

Also the "bowyer commoner" would not do well as a hunter, because of skill limitations. (Commoners have Spot and Listen as class skills, which is one of the few advantages they have. However, Knowledge Nature, Search, and Survival are not class skills.) If they used a feat to augmant their hunting, they would need to loose either Skill Focus Bowyer or Point Blank shot.
.

Personally I think Point blank shot is pretty much a quintessential combat feat and thus not appropriate for a commoner (or Bowyer) to have especially since you've already declared that he would not be effective in combat.
I would have gone with a feat that improves his social skills however giving him something to make him a better hunter would also be more approapriate than a combat feat imho (since procuring food is more important to a commoner than defending the village from orc raids - which is the job of the warriors)
 

Tonguez said:
Personally I think Point blank shot is pretty much a quintessential combat feat and thus not appropriate for a commoner (or Bowyer) to have especially since you've already declared that he would not be effective in combat.
I would have gone with a feat that improves his social skills however giving him something to make him a better hunter would also be more approapriate than a combat feat imho (since procuring food is more important to a commoner than defending the village from orc raids - which is the job of the warriors)

I can see you point of view, but I don't agree. The reason I said they would not do well in combat is that he would die quickly due to low AC and hp. They would probably get in 1 or 2 good shots in before they died.

However in your game you can change what you like. Skill focus Survival, Self-Sufficient, or Track would be good choices for hunting.

I considered a social skill feat also, to make them a better teacher. (Can Handle Animal apply to small children? ;) ). Something to improve Diplomacy would probably be good.
 

Tonguez said:
Personally I think Point blank shot is pretty much a quintessential combat feat and thus not appropriate for a commoner (or Bowyer) to have especially since you've already declared that he would not be effective in combat.
I would have gone with a feat that improves his social skills however giving him something to make him a better hunter would also be more approapriate than a combat feat imho (since procuring food is more important to a commoner than defending the village from orc raids - which is the job of the warriors)
Point Blank Shot is useful for hunters as well. If a long bow does 1d8, and a regular deer has 1d8 Hit Dice (which seems reasonable, they're not in the SRD) that extra point of damage can make a big difference. The +1 to hit is also significant when you are a commoner with lousy BAB. It's also realistic in that hunters do try to get close to get a good shot.
 

I love this thread. I can't wait to see the other races done up. Dwarven smiths or masons, gnome alchemists or herbalists, halfling goofoffs. I mean everyone knows that the expert will be much better at goofing off than the commoner.

~hf
 

If I ever printed an Aquerra setting book(s) and had the ability to hire one or more people to help me MaverickWeirdo would be at the top of my short list.
 

I don't know about the last bit there. I think it depends far too much on a modern-style division of labor for my tastes. Certainly, in the ancient world it was much different. Defending the village from raids was the job of every male villager of age--not just those with special training and experience as warriors. On the American frontier, it was the same, as I understand it. Even in the late middle ages/renaissance/reformation era when professional armies were beginning to predominate in the wars of Europe, an ordinary burgher was expected to serve his city in time of war. And peasants would at least attempt to defend their ancestral rights and ways of life against their lords in periodic peasant revolts.

Even in the revolution of 1525, the armies of the rebellious peasants were organized and trained along the lines of mercenary companies. Their military weakness vis a vis the armies of the Swabian league, et al was primarily in their lack of artillery, their lack of coordination and common leadership, and the fact that they had to rotate who was serving in the army on a regular basis so that people could go home and harvest their crops.

Only slightly later, one of the major complaints of city governments agaisnt the anabaptist movements was that they would typically refuse to bear arms in service of their city or lord.

All of that points toward the position that there was no strong distinction between common "warriors" and civilians in any of the time periods that D&D draws its aesthetic influence from. It's certainly true that there were professional mercenaries. However, when it came to defending their village from marauders or defending their city from an invading army, every male of age was expected (and able) to bear arms in defense of their home.

I would expect this tendency to be even more pronounced in elven and dwarven cultures given their traditional presentation in D&D.

Even in human cultures, however, I would expect commoners to use at least one of their two simple weapon proficiencies for a weapon used by the local militia. In frontier cultures, I wouldn't be surprised if all the human commoners had proficiency in longspear and light crossbow and took combat reflexes as a feat. While a force of 40 Com 1-4s with longspears (and combat reflexes) and crossbows led by their mayor (Exp 5 with a heavy mace (a sign of office) and light crossbow), part time captain of the militia (Ftr 3/Com 2 middle aged retired mercenary) and priest (Com 2/Clr 1 or something) might not be a significant threat to PCs past level 4 or so, it might well be sufficient to fend off a typical orc raiding party or to hold a palisade for a few days against an orc tribe on the warpath. (Hopefully, it would be long enough for the cavalry to arrive). Historically, in defending the palisade, they would probably also have help from the women and girls as well--either in carrying up millstones, etc to drop on the heads of the orcs manning the ram or scaling the walls or in carrying ammunition and reloading crossbows, etc. In fact, even in the wealthy, advanced FR nations like Cormyr, I would expect the merchants and commoners to have one or two combat feats or proficiencies to reflect militia training and duty.

Tonguez said:
I would have gone with a feat that improves his social skills however giving him something to make him a better hunter would also be more approapriate than a combat feat imho (since procuring food is more important to a commoner than defending the village from orc raids - which is the job of the warriors)
 

MavrickWeirdo said:
The origional concept was for both the commoner and the expert to be Bowyers (Bow and arrow makers). They ended up developing in different ways.
(Deletia)
The remarkable difference to me is that, while both started from the same craft: One is a significant, and highly social, member of a community. The other is a wandering loner.

When building NPC's, my tendency is to treat any NPC who makes their living off a single Craft or Profession skill as a commoner.
Thus blacksmiths, innkeepers, farmers, and cooks all tend to be commoners.
People who need multiple skills to make a living become experts: heralds, lawyers, armorers, farriers, and merchants.

"Demihumans" tend to be experts: it's the best way to model their long lifespans.
 

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