Comparison: Wyrmling dragon and a cat

[S'mon]

I noticed the riciculousness of Wyrmling black dragons when reading 'scourge of the howling horde', where a wyrmling black is the BBEG leader of the 'horde'!

For me the simplest solution is to simply increase all the dragon sizes until you get something plausible. Personally I'd make the wyrmling black Medium, ie at least 4' long from snout to base of tail.

 

[Stalker0]

And no one seems to be taking issue with the basic premise of comparing a housecat to an imaginary fantasy creature.

Ah, but how about comparing two fantasy creatures

Wyrmling Dragon vs... Schroedinger's Cat!!

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ah, but how about comparing two fantasy creatures

Wyrmling Dragon vs... Schroedinger's Cat!!

Well, as long as we don't open the Monster Manual containing Schroediners Cat, it is as well stronger and weaker as the Dragon! Totally ridiculous!

 

[Alzrius]

Raising their size category? I assume you mean lowering it.

I'm readjusting everything. It's not very plausible to be a 19th level spellcaster in a world where the highest level spellcaster is 6th (e6) or 8th (e8).

Also, it kind of destroys my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient dragon to be as large as a building. Dragons have enjoyed a size creep every edition. It's out of control.

I'm just trying to bring them back to reality a bit - make them a bit more feral, and less godlike. I want a group of 8th level characters to be able to *reasonably* challenge a great wyrm dragon. So, I'm re-imagining them.

No, I meant raising their size category...for younger dragons.

From what I understand, your idea is that you want to take dragons of every age category and make them all plausible enemies in your E6/E8 game - hence, you're looking for a way to power them down at every age category so they're not overwhelming.

I can understand that idea (particularly if you want wyrmlings to start at CR 1 and increase by 1 at each age category) but that seems like a lot of work for comparatively little reward.

My suggestion would be to take just the first few age categories of a dragon and modify their stats. For example, get rid of a black dragon's last six age categories (everything after "adult"), increase each age category's size by two size categories each (decrease or ignore the ability score changes from this) and change the names for them all. Voila! Your "adult black dragon" is now a "great black wyrm"!

 

[der_kluge]

No, I meant raising their size category...for younger dragons.

From what I understand, your idea is that you want to take dragons of every age category and make them all plausible enemies in your E6/E8 game - hence, you're looking for a way to power them down at every age category so they're not overwhelming.

I can understand that idea (particularly if you want wyrmlings to start at CR 1 and increase by 1 at each age category) but that seems like a lot of work for comparatively little reward.

Exactly. But I don't intend to do this just for myself. I'll make it available in some form or another for anyone who enjoys E6/E8 style of play.

I was thinking last night that an "E6 Bible" would be an extremely useful product to have.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

So if a housecat is cr 1/4 and a wyrmling is CR3, that means a swarm of 12 housecats is also CR3.

I think I'm betting on the cats.

 

[greyscale1]

7.5/10

Was amused, would be amused again.

 

[Remathilis]

That's right. I'm going to compare a Monstrous Centipede (Colossal) to the Tarrasque.

The Tarrasque is size colossal.
A Monstrous Centipede is size colossal.

A Tarrasque has 858 hit points.
A Monstrous Centipede, which is the same size as a Tarrasque has 132 hit points.

A Tarrasque has a 45 strength.
A Monstrous Centipede has an 27 strength - stronger than a good portion of the population.

A Tarrasque has a movement of 20'.
A Monstrous Centipede moves at 40 ft. - that's right, twice as fast as the fastest Tarrasque you've ever seen, can climb at 40 ft.

A Tarrasque has a bite (4d8+17/18–20/×3) and 2 horns (1d10+8) and 2 claws (1d12+8) and tail slap (3d8+8).
A Montrous Centipede also has a bite that does (4d6+12 plus poison) So, to clarify - a Tarrasque bite is 4d8, but a Centipedes bite is 4d6. So, a Tarrasque, which is as big as a Monstrous Centipede, has sharper Teeth than a Monstrous Centipede. Unfathomable.

A Monstrous Centipede can poison you.
A Tarrasque, which is as big as a Monstrous Centipede, can grab you without AoO and swallow you for 2d8+8 points of crushing damage plus 2d8+6 points of acid damage per round from the tarrasque’s digestive juices. Ok, take a look at the room you're in. Place a Monstrous Centipede in the corner of the room, and then imagine it grabbing you and putting it in its mouth from as far as 20 feet. Just imagine that. I presume such an action would be impossible, since a centipedes hands lack opposible thumbs for gripping.

A Tarrasque has an initiative of +7.
A Monstrous Centipede has an initiative of +1 - you know, despite being a faster runner and climber than just about anything in the world.

As you were.

 

[pawsplay]

Since a house cat has a partial hit die, I think it's probably fair to give a wyrmling a whole hit die. I'm not entirely happy with Str 11, but monsters tend tend to have inflated Str scores across the board anyway, so messing with that might start something that can't be stopped.

I don't know why the D&D design team thought a wyrmling should be a very credible threat in its own right.

 

[Starglim]

Also, it kind of destroys my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient dragon to be as large as a building. Dragons have enjoyed a size creep every edition. It's out of control.

I'm just trying to bring them back to reality a bit - make them a bit more feral, and less godlike. I want a group of 8th level characters to be able to *reasonably* challenge a great wyrm dragon. So, I'm re-imagining them.

Really? Different premises, I suppose. It damages my sense of verisimilitude for an ancient wyrm to be smaller than a suburban house.