Compasses

[Steverooo]

I remember reading the ancient Norse people often used certain types of quartz crystal as a navigation aid predating the introduction/re-invention of the compass in Europe. Because of the polarizing effect of the specific types of crystals it was possible to determine one's "position" by holding the crystal over a slotted board.

I believe you're referring to the "Sunstone", there... Different animal. It was used to find the location of the sun, on a cloudy day.

Sounds like a Survival check to me (since Intuit Direction goes away in 3.5).

Again, why make the PCs roll ANYTHING to determine direction, with a compass? Does it add anything to the game? Isn't the (now defunct) Intuit Direction skill necessary BECAUSE there are no compii (compasses)?

Considering that compasses do NOT prevent you from getting lost (they tell you which way is north, NOT where you are!), why is it a "Bad Thing" to give the PCs the option of knowing which way they're headed? (Knowledge (Geography) tells them where they are)?

So, again; Why no compasses? Magnifying glasses and even telescopes exist in 3e. By the time those were around, compasses were commonplace!

As for the Druidic Know Direction Orison, it is not made useless by the compass (just less useful). Also, it would not be thrown off by the presence of ferrous metals, or high-grade iron ore! So, I don't see the existance of that Orison as sufficient reason to prevent the compass from being developed.

As for magical "anyone can use'm, infinitely" compasses, that's fine, and they should cost quite a bit. But the mundane compass should be cheaper and readily available, too... at least in those worlds with magnetic fields!

So why aren't they? What is it that I'm missing?

D&D is a pseudo-Medieval-to-Renaissance Fantasy RPG, based very loosely on the real world. The level of technology is right for compasses to be common. Yet they are not.

I think the above discussion shows that compasses could be easily made (even if, just like today, they are not perfect). That being the case, is there a good, compelling reason WHY they shouldn't be a part of the game?

As for price, I arbitrarily declare an ordinary, mundane compass to be worth 25 gold pieces. A magical one is worth... 1/2 (Zero-level spell) x 1 (Caster Level) x 2,000 = 1,000 GP, and takes one day to make.

[Edit: 1,000 GP as a "Use Activated" item, that is!]

 

[Agback]

Originally posted by MeepoTheMighty Hmm, I dunno. My first instinct would be to say no, since they use them on metal ships just fine. However, I know the Nazis used mines back in WW2 with triggering mechanisms that would detect the passing of a ship by the deflection of a compass needle...so now I'm not sure.

On an iron ship (or, for that matter, a ship with iron cannon), it was necessary to fix the compass in place (in a structure called a 'binnacle') and arrange a set of iron balls of various sizes around it to cancel out the effect of the iron structure and cannon on the compass needle. This was done by a process of trial and error that involved sailing in all directions with a known north. Skillful and time-consuming, this was not a task to be done casually. And it depended on all the iron in the ship staying put, pretty much, with respect to the binnacle.

The binnacle was usually located on the quarterdeck or bridge, where the helmsman could see it to steer a constant course in poor visibility or without landmarks.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Zhure]

I believe you're referring to the "Sunstone", there... Different animal. It was used to find the location of the sun, on a cloudy day.

Something like that, but there was also a carved board held under the crystal's polarized light. By gauging the sun's position at apex (noon), it was possible to determine approximate placement on the globe. Or so I recall.

Greg

 

[Steverooo]

Tolkien's Essay on Fairy Stories, Compasses, and Experimental Evidence:

In said essay, Tolkien notes that the realm of Faerie doesn't consist solely of the magical, but also mundane wine and bread and cheese... Just because a game is Fantasy doesn't mean that things of the real world should operate differently, there (sans the use of magic).

Thus, I pulled out two survival knives from the box by my desk, unscrewed their steel end-caps, and checked the two compasses within. They both indicated the same direction, even when brought together until they touched.

I then went to my closet and moved boxes until I found my mail (the word "Chainmail" was a Victorian-era misnomer), and tried the compasses near it... Even when sitting on top of the mail shirt, the compass was not noticably thrown off. Nor did the needle deviate when placed right next to it from different directions.

Returning to my desk, I took a folded pocket knife, and held it close to the compasses... Nothing. I moved it closer and closer to one of them, until it touched... Nothing. Finally, I opened the blade, moved it about, and finally touched the compass with it... Only when right next to the housing did the needle react.

I then tried the much larger blade of the survival knife, and found that when the blade was within about one inch of the compass, that the needle moved, and that touching this large piece of steel threw it off.

I also tried setting the compass on top of a steel toolbox... Nothing, again. I moved it around, put the compass next to the toolbox on various side... Still nothing!

Conclusion: It is the inverse square law, with a vengeance! Of course a steel battleship needs a binnacled compass. The quantity of ferrous metal is quite large, and the proximity is near. As the distance increases, however, the intensity of the magnetic field drops off with the square of the distance. A suit of armor, at arm's length (where you usually hold a compass when trying to read it) would have little affect... unless it were magnetized!

Besides, even if only the Druids and Rogues in leather, or the Rangers in mithril chain shirts can use'm, aren't compasses still valid?

Most compasses are only accurate to within a few (2-5) degrees, anyway. Even if you're one degree off north, due to being near a very large quantity of high-grade iron ore, will it really matter, much? Assuming they max it out, by tenth level or so, your Barbarian, Druid, or Ranger will have enough Wilderness Lore/Survival to never get lost, anyway (unless you use the "1 is a Fumble" optional rule)!

[Edit: Typos!]

 

[Steverooo]

Something like that, but there was also a carved board held under the crystal's polarized light. By gauging the sun's position at apex (noon), it was possible to determine approximate placement on the globe. Or so I recall.

Hmmm! I'm not familiar with that one... Nice to know!

Thanks for the above link to the old compass, too!

 

[Zhure]

http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/heathentime.html

Found it

 

[Zhure]

More here: http://www.griffithobs.org/IPSViking.html

 

[Steverooo]

Very cool, Zhure. I will have to see if I can get that Viking Compass book from the Danish Maritime Museum!

Now, back to the question: Is there any good reason why compasses are missing from D&D?

 

[BiggusGeekus@Work]

Now, back to the question: Is there any good reason why compasses are missing from D&D?

Because flat worlds don't have magnetic poles? Because never in "Lord of the Rings" does Aragorn say "Hang on a sec, lemme whip my compass out"? Because Gygax didn't think of it?


I can't think of a good reason, other than "tradition" or "breaks fiction".

 

[Dinkeldog]

Steve, I haven't checked my new orienteering compass, but the compasses we used when I was playing Marine used to be thrown off by the amount of metal in an M-16 or a substantial belt buckle. The deviation disappeared if you held your arms in front of you, but it was quite noticeable.