Complete Mage and Book of Nine Swords questions

[Rystil Arden]

You know what? Never let it be said that I cannot be reasoned with.

I've just reexamined the wording of the Reserve feats, and they say that must have "a [blah] spell available to cast." One could definitely argue that a sorcerer with Energy Substitution (Acid) and meteor swarm has an acid spell "available to cast," even if it's not technically on her spells known list.

I'm not sure which way I'd rule, now... But I'm no longer convinced that my previous ruling was accurate.

Hmmm...based on that exact wording, I agree with you that Alacritous Cogitation still would not work, but I do think it would work for the sorcerer. That's cool--IMO sorcerers deserve a bit of a break every now and then.

 

[Thanee]

Not at all. The spells a sorcerer knows still apply to Reserve feats. I'd just say that the sorcerer cannot count spells modified with Energy Substitution to his Reserve feats. That hardly makes the Reserve feats useless; in fact, they're still better for sorcerers than they are for wizards.

I don't have the book yet, so can only go from what I read here, and if it is as you imply... that you have to have a spell known (not be able to cast a spell) in order to have it count for reserve as a spontaneous caster, then the feats are next to worthless for them IMHO.

If you have to learn one spell and some metamagic feats, which are otherwise also useful, in order to have your reserve feat work on maximum efficiency, that would be fine.

If you have to learn a spell from a highly limited subset every few levels, it's not worth it to bother with reserve feats, especially since you are going to have spells spread out through many levels, anyways, then, which are usually more effective than your magic trick. That's a too high cost for a sorcerer for the limited gain.

I'm curious how you come to the conclusion, that these feats would be more useful for sorcerers (over wizards, going with the target audience (those two classes) for the feat here), though?

(using the damage reserve feats as a comparison here, as I understand there are many others as well)

- Sorcerers already have more spells per day
- Sorcerers already can use their offensive spells repeatedly

Gaining a little trick they already know in multiple advanced versions gives them almost nothing.

Wizards, however, gain the very powerful ability to be able to prepare a wealth of protection and utility spells, while always having some offensive capability throughout the day (for the cost of one feat and the preparation of one spell of their highest level, which is a considerable cost, but at least it works then).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

You know what? Never let it be said that I cannot be reasoned with.

I've just reexamined the wording of the Reserve feats, and they say that must have "a [blah] spell available to cast."

Ahh... couldn't you post that a little faster! (j/k)

I'm not sure which way I'd rule, now... But I'm no longer convinced that my previous ruling was accurate.

Well, at least my above post might give you some food for thought then.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mouseferatu]

I'm curious how you come to the conclusion, that these feats would be more useful for sorcerers (over wizards, going with the target audience (those two classes) for the feat here), though?

Let's say you have a wizard and a sorcerer, both with Storm Bolt (a reserve feat), and who can both cast 3rd-level spells. The wizard has lightning bolt in his spell book; the sorcerer has lightning bolt on his spells known list. Neither of them has any other 3rd-level electrical spells.

The wizard can only benefit from Storm Bolt as long as he keeps lightning bolt prepared. If he casts it, that's it. He can't benefit from the feat any more that day.

The sorcerer, however, can still cast lightning bolt multiple times. As long as he has at least one 3rd-level spell slot he hasn't used up, he's always able to cast a 3rd-level electrical spell, and thus he can use Storm Bolt long after the wizard's been forced to cast his "heavy hitter" spell.

That, in a nutshell, is why I feel Reserve feats are better for sorcerers: Longer-term usability.

 

[Thanee]

That, in a nutshell, is why I feel Reserve feats are better for sorcerers: Longer-term usability.

Yes, in this comparison at this specific point a sorcerer has an advantage, though that advantage is mostly an advantage the sorcerer already had before the reserve feat was added into the mix. And when it comes to long-term (as in going up in levels, I know you meant something else with that above), they easily lose out...

Take that very same sorcerer and move up 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 levels... then the limits start kicking in. Sure you might be able to find an appropriate spell to learn every time you gain a new spell level, but you limit yourself in a major fashion, if you always or even often have to learn that over another spell for one of your precious few highest level spells and when you want to unlearn the lower level spells, you also limit yourself, since you can only swap out so many spells (PHB II might allow more... havn't really read the relearning section yet ).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Asmor]

Interesting... I had forgotten about Heighten Spell.

Ok, so let's say that metamagic feats such as energy substitution do allow sorcerers to qualify for reserve feats. What if the sorcerer has Heighten Spell? Then he could have, say, Melf's Acid Arrows and would always be considered to have an acid spell of his highest available level, whatever level that may be. If he uses all his highest slots, he's still got an acid spell of one level lower! And so on down the line...

I'm not convinced this is overpowered, but it's definitely something that should be examined.

 

[WarlockLord]

What about Shadow Evocation, et al? I mean, if you cast this as a fire/acid/whatever spell, it gains the appropriate descriptor. You have the option of having it available as a ____ type of spell.

If my shadowcaster knows shadow evoc, can he take a reseve feat?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about Shadow Evocation, et al? I mean, if you cast this as a fire/acid/whatever spell, it gains the appropriate descriptor. You have the option of having it available as a ____ type of spell.

If my shadowcaster knows shadow evoc, can he take a reseve feat?

Summon Monster is another example - it can be a [Fire] spell if used to summon, say, a [Fire] Elemental, and is not prepared as such in advance.

-Hyp.

 

[Mouseferatu]

You know, all these special cases have almost convinced me to go back to my original stance: If it's not a spell of the appropriate type on your spells known list, it doesn't qualify.

Anything else just opens up a seemingly endless can of worms.

But I'm still open to alternative arguments.

 

[Asmor]

What about Shadow Evocation, et al? I mean, if you cast this as a fire/acid/whatever spell, it gains the appropriate descriptor. You have the option of having it available as a ____ type of spell.

If my shadowcaster knows shadow evoc, can he take a reseve feat?

It specifically says they won't let you use spells which gain a descriptor when they're cast, using Summon Monster as an example.

There's a difference between that and a metamagic spell, though. With a metamagic spell, you change the actual descriptor of the spell. It doesn't gain a new descriptor when it's cast, it already has the changed descriptor. It's a bit more of an abstract distinction for a sorcerer (still a distinction, IMHO), but it's very obvious with a wizard who would prepare an energy-substituted spell and it would have a different descriptor than the regular one, and allow you to use reserve feats with that changed descriptor.