Complete Warrior to have new base classes

[Hardhead]

The problem in 2nd Edition was that TSR kept introducing new options which were not just different, but BETTER. Serious power creep, often in the form of kits. WotC prestige classes have been better (although everyone can probably point to one or two that are unbalanced).

Two words: Mystic Theurge.

Andy Colins even admits to "pushing the envelope" with it. The problem is, you shouldn't be pusing the envelope in the core rules. You should be setting the base line. Like it or not, power creep is here. Power levels are being ratcheted up in the core rules, and they'll be ratcheted up further in the next few years.

According to the dictionary, when you "push the envelope," you increase the operating capabilites of a technological system. In other words, you set a new high-end benchmark. However, in a game system like 3e, if you assume the system is balanced before, when people constanly push the envelope, you end up with power creep - arguably *massive* power creep in the case of the Mystic Theurge.

Each time someone pushes the envelope, the next person to do so will push it further.

I was really hoping 3.5 would take the opportunity to sort of "reset" the power creep and demonstrate what should be considered a baseline for PrCs, feats, ect. Instead, if what I've seen is any indication, they've simply upped the ante on power creep.

 

[Valiantheart]

To me the more core classes that are available the closer 3E seems to a point buy based system. I dont necessarily think that is a bad thing.

I could see a fighter class who gives up medium and heavy armor proficiency for an ability similiar to a Duelists dodge ability when in light or medium armor. That same fighter could take a 1d8 HD for an expanded skill list and 4 skill points per round.

Or I could see another fighter who accepts a lesser feat progression for 4 skill points and a better list (the samurai).

I am alright with customization as long as strict balance can be maintained.

 

[Valiantheart]

Two words: Mystic Theurge.

Andy Colins even admits to "pushing the envelope" with it. The problem is, you shouldn't be pusing the envelope in the core rules. You should be setting the base line. Like it or not, power creep is here. Power levels are being ratcheted up in the core rules, and they'll be ratcheted up further in the next few years.

According to the dictionary, when you "push the envelope," you increase the operating capabilites of a technological system. In other words, you set a new high-end benchmark. However, in a game system like 3e, if you assume the system is balanced before, when people constanly push the envelope, you end up with power creep - arguably *massive* power creep in the case of the Mystic Theurge.

Each time someone pushes the envelope, the next person to do so will push it further.

I was really hoping 3.5 would take the opportunity to sort of "reset" the power creep and demonstrate what should be considered a baseline for PrCs, feats, ect. Instead, if what I've seen is any indication, they've simply upped the ante on power creep.

And I for one cant figure out what is wrong with a wizard 10/cleric 10.

 

[Emiricol]

Well, on the one hand I have a Rog1/Ftr2 who relies on dex to tumble past opponents and get a killer backstab with his greatsword. He has Knockdown feat, so usually gets a free trip attack. He has high Bluff to fake out enemies when he has to fight 1:1. He wears light armor and puts his money in protective magic etc.

wtf do I need a core class to do that better than the core class could? Power creep.

Either way, though, I'll evaluate the book, and if they do core class stuff better than I feel they should, I'll just Rule Zero them from my campaign. No more creep.

 

[jmucchiello]

I could see a fighter class who gives up medium and heavy armor proficiency for an ability similiar to a Duelists dodge ability when in light or medium armor. That same fighter could take a 1d8 HD for an expanded skill list and 4 skill points per round.

Nearly an ad for my latest PDF release: Character Customization. (Check my sig for a link.)

 

[jmucchiello]

And I for one cant figure out what is wrong with a wizard 10/cleric 10.

It's versionitis. In 2nd ed a party with a 15th level fighter could also have a 13/14 wizard/cleric. 2nd ed player are use to having 7th level spells around 15th level whether or not they multiclassed.

In 3rd ed, there is no hope for this. 10/10 has 5th level spells max. The difference in power is extreme compared to being a 20th level cleric or 20th level wizard. With the mystic theurge you can at least get to something like 15/15 at 20th level. Not as hard a power hit.

 

[Valiantheart]

Right. And you take your lumps for multclassing. Its not supposed to be a free ride.

 

[jmucchiello]

Right. And you take your lumps for multclassing. Its not supposed to be a free ride.

Right and the lumps got bigger. There is a much bigger difference between 13/14 to 15 versus 7/8 to 15. A lot of veteran D&D players I know will not play spellcasters in 3.0 (forget 3.5) because they feel they got overcompensated for.

But since this is a complete warrior discussion, I do think we've gone a bit off track.

 

[Emiricol]

Well, I'm pretty glad a wizard with the same experience as a Ftr15 can't be a wiz14/rog14. I just don't see why it should get free levels, I guess.

In any case, one could *expect* that to reach the heights of magical power one would have to be dedicated to doing that. Time off to learn backstabbing and tumbling *ought* to slow down the power progression of his spells - he stopped focusing on them for a level.

 

[JPL]

Maybe it's me. But if I want variant classes, I'd rather look at third-party product like Sovereign Stone for the archer base class.

Maybe I'll take a look at Monte Cook's Variant Rulebook, Arcana Unearthed.

BTW, I wonder if having a samurai base class (just speculating) in the Complete Warrior would hurt the sale of their current Oriental Adventures book. What do you think?

I guess WotC is figuring that other folks feel differently.

I don't think OA would take much of a hit --- it's a different beast altogether.

Actually, looking at the Star Wars Hero's Guide, it occurs to me that WotC should experiment with some class combinations with variant special abilities to simulate other archetypes.

For example, a wizard/bard could be tweaked a little bit [maybe adding a pinch of Smart Hero?] to create a sage, or a fighter/druid in a loincloth could be a beastmaster.

Again, concepts that can be expressed in other ways, but variant classes are an area that WotC really hasn't explored thus far.

It'll be easier for the spellcaster books...variant magic systems, and variant spellcasters to go with them, including incantation magic from Urban Arcana [which could end up being the next big thing in D&D --- a fully-developed, well-designed non-Vancian magic system].