CONAN LIVES! Info on the new Conan RPG

Water Bob

Adventurer
I do think you are letting your dislike for this style of game & love for the setting overcome your reason about whether it is bad or simply not to your taste though.

I'm Old School. My games are heavy on roleplaying and immersion. For me and my group, that's what makes roleplaying so much different than another gaming activity, like playing Axis & Allies, poker, or Monopoly.

The Threat Mechanic is more akin to those types of games than actual, real roleplaying.

And, in being Old School, I believe that Meta-Gaming is bad.

I've found that most roleplayers have that opinion of Meta-Gaming. Not all, of course. But, most.
 

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Pickles III

First Post
I think you are more 2e AD&D era school than "old" school.

Old 1e & before was (often - massive table variation) about overcoming challenges set by the DM & was anything but immersive. See Tomb of Horrors for the classic metagame dungeon. It was very much about player skill rather than their characters abilities which is surely metagaming.
But that's by the by I know what you mean but I do not think you can claim heritage as a support for the idea that acting in character is the only definition of what makes a roleplaying game. It is most closely matched to what roleplaying is but playing a roleplaying game can involve much more than that.

I agree metagame mechanics like threat can break immersion but they need not - you can be fully invested in playing your character while also participating in the metagame.

These devices are intended to help emulate genre tropes & allow for all of the participants not just the DM to be involved in the narrative - 5 brains being more creative than 1. They also give you some mechanical depth which can be lacking in the I attack with my sword, again fighter combat.


Anyway you are clearly not happy with this(!) & I wish you luck with the next 2025 edition of the Conan RPG!
 

N01H3r3

Explorer
These devices are intended to help emulate genre tropes & allow for all of the participants not just the DM to be involved in the narrative - 5 brains being more creative than 1. They also give you some mechanical depth which can be lacking in the I attack with my sword, again fighter combat.
A lot this. I find that many 'traditional' style games (AD&D and its ilk) tend to cast a large divide between Roleplaying and Game, so that they're two distinct activities, and you don't let one impinge upon the other (or vice versa).

I disagree with that. I enjoy both the narrative and the mechanical sides of RPGs, and I want to engage with both when I'm playing or GMing.

It's the difference between the GM as a neutral arbiter, and the GM as an unpredictable force of nature which can switch between benign or malevolent on a whim. It doesn't make for a terribly satisfying experience as a player, not even getting into the causality chains between innocuous actions in one region having a physical impact on the events that take place in another region.
Alternatively, the latter is "GM as participant".

My typical GMing style works under the same assumption as a Joss Whedon show - the player characters are most interesting when they're suffering. When everything is going smoothly, things are boring. When things get complicated, things get interesting. Similarly, in my experience, a difficult and hard-fought victory is more satisfying to the players than coasting from one victory to the next.

Threat is the means by which the GM complicates things mid-scene. The GM is free to frame scenes in whatever manner he chooses, with Threat as a counterpoint to the resources that the PCs have. It takes a delicate touch to maintain the pressure on the PCs just right... but the same can be said of traditional GMing, only with Threat, there's a way to quantify it.

I just think hearing how the rules are used from the GM's point of view--why you made that choice, what you were thinking there that motivated you to do that--would be good for the game all around. Those that already like the game get to see it in action. Those on the fence get a better understanding of how the rules can be used. And, those, like me, who hate the Threat Mechanic get a close up view of it in action, with commentary--which may change some opinions (even mine--I'll give it a fair look).

I'll give a telling example from my Mutant Chronicles campaign (same mechanic, different names).

The player characters are investigating a murder, when the victim's body begins to move - it had been animated as a Kadaver (a disease-fuelled zombie, extremely resilient to harm). Typically, a lone Kadaver is tough, but otherwise not a particularly challenging foe (they're more effective in groups), but I wanted to amp up the fear and peril of a single foe.

The Kadaver has a special rule that means that an attack against it can be ignored by spending a Dark Symmetry point (the Mutant Chronicles counterpart to Threat), unless the attack was fire or a headshot. They're also Troopers, the lowest class of NPC, so they only roll 1d20 for normal tests, making them less effective. I spend most of my starting pool of Dark Symmetry points to boost its attacks up to a more reasonable level, and to ignore the attacks of the PCs until they figured out that headshots were more effective. It didn't take long, but the whole fight lasted three rounds, instead of one, and the player characters were a bit scratched up, where they would have been untouched.

The use of ten Dark Symmetry points in that fight wasn't an overwhelming force, but rather a tool to amp up the tension and challenge the players. The intent wasn't to destroy them, but to scare them, and establish the threat of the enemy.
 

The use of ten Dark Symmetry points in that fight wasn't an overwhelming force, but rather a tool to amp up the tension and challenge the players. The intent wasn't to destroy them, but to scare them, and establish the threat of the enemy.
But you're doing that in a way such that they're learning a lesson which is untrue. You want to establish the enemy as a threat, so you make this one monster much scarier than it would otherwise be (through use of a meta-game resource); their takeaway is that this is a very strong monster which needs to be dealt with using one of its prescribed weaknesses.

But if they encounter a group of ten such creatures, at a later point, they're going to think that these are all very scary monsters, and they'll need fire or a called shot if they want any chance of putting one down. They'll know through first-hand experience that regular attacks are ineffective. If one of them goes down from a shot to the torso - if anyone even attempts that, given their certain knowledge that it would be ineffective - then it creates a plot hole.
 

I guess what I'm getting at is this:

If you've already established that you're not playing an antagonistic GM (in the vein of Basic D&D), then you've decided that you're not going to kill the PCs unless they're really asking for it (either through stupid or heroic actions, where death would be suitable to the genre). You just want to scare the players, and make the story more dramatic. At that point, why do you need a meta-game resource to regulate that? Why can't you just fudge some dice rolls, whenever you feel like it? How does it improve any aspect of the game when the Big Bad goes down before it can even act, because the GM spent too many Dark Symmetry points on keeping the Dragon up for another round? Is it just a way to keep the GM engaged with the game aspect of it, by giving a resource to manage?
 

N01H3r3

Explorer
But you're doing that in a way such that they're learning a lesson which is untrue. You want to establish the enemy as a threat, so you make this one monster much scarier than it would otherwise be (through use of a meta-game resource); their takeaway is that this is a very strong monster which needs to be dealt with using one of its prescribed weaknesses.

But if they encounter a group of ten such creatures, at a later point, they're going to think that these are all very scary monsters, and they'll need fire or a called shot if they want any chance of putting one down. They'll know through first-hand experience that regular attacks are ineffective. If one of them goes down from a shot to the torso - if anyone even attempts that, given their certain knowledge that it would be ineffective - then it creates a plot hole.
Or I'm playing up narrative elements over a slavish devotion to realism - the first time such a foe is encountered, it's a terror. The next time, the heroes have figured out how to deal with those foes, and they're weaker by comparison. I'm running something that resembles a story, with a particular pace and particular narrative beats, albeit guided by player choices, rather than a simulated chain of events to which I'm just an impartial judge (which seems to be a sin to some people).

I dislike the notion that an NPC must always exist in a specific, singular state (indeed, that element has more in common with computer games than anything else - NPCs as a pre-set and immutable package of stats). Fights aren't fair, they're not all equal, and nobody should enter battle with the certainty that "I'm fighting X, so I'm probably going to win", and the uncertainty and variation that comes from an additional factor that they can't 100% plan for is a valuable one for keeping action scenes tense, and keeping foes as viable threats regardless of how powerful the PCs have gotten.

I guess what I'm getting at is this:

If you've already established that you're not playing an antagonistic GM (in the vein of Basic D&D), then you've decided that you're not going to kill the PCs unless they're really asking for it (either through stupid or heroic actions, where death would be suitable to the genre). You just want to scare the players, and make the story more dramatic. At that point, why do you need a meta-game resource to regulate that? Why can't you just fudge some dice rolls, whenever you feel like it? How does it improve any aspect of the game when the Big Bad goes down before it can even act, because the GM spent too many Dark Symmetry points on keeping the Dragon up for another round? Is it just a way to keep the GM engaged with the game aspect of it, by giving a resource to manage?
I don't need a metagame resource. But this isn't about need. I like the outcomes it produces, and the effects I can create with it. I recently did a revision of the Infinity RPG playtest that frames "Heat" (the name for Threat in that system) as the kind of noise and unpleasant attention that gets in the way of covert ops. High Heat means that enemies are more alert, that the situation is risky and filled with peril. In one of the adventures in the Mutant Chronicles line, I used Dark Symmetry points to serve as a stealth and subtlety system, where the total number of Dark Symmetry points represents the security at a high society party being infiltrated, and players contribute Dark Symmetry points to the GM through actions that might draw undue attention. It's a tool, and while it isn't essential, it has certainly been useful, and I enjoy seeing what I and other GMs can do with it.

You're right that it is, in part, a way to keep the GM engaged with the game aspect. I find that a lot of RPGs overlook that the GM is a participant as well, and while that's fine for some, that isn't always ideal for every style of game. I got into game design in part because I like the rules side of RPGs, particularly when the rules interact interestingly or complement the roleplaying side of things. I dislike systems that just "get out of the way" when roleplaying happens, as if RP and G are anathema to one another. I dislike systems that assume that the GM's only real interaction with the rules is pre-session prep and teaching the players, because I want to play too, rather than just serving as Master of Ceremonies for everyone else's fun (having spent two years dealing Roulette and Blackjack professionally, I've done "you're playing, I'm just facilitating play").

Beyond that... some players don't like the idea of a GM fudging the dice rolls, and don't respond well to the idea of it. I've done it with some games, but I prefer systems where I don't need to, because that kind of flexibility and authorial power is a part of the system, rather than using the GM as a way to patch the system if it creates undesirable outcomes (a good GM doesn't need a system, a bad GM can make even the best system awful).

And, once you get down to it, GMing is a daunting prospect for those who've never done it before, particularly with systems where there aren't guidelines, limits, and structure. GMing where there's a structure in place is an easier prospect... and we want more GMs, because that's the only real way the hobby can expand.

It's also worth remembering that Threat is one part of the system, not the whole of it.

Broadly, test difficulties do not scale linearly, but the maths of the system is obfuscated into relatively straightforward player choices. For a character rolling only two dice (the default, buying no extra dice), with an Attribute of 8, and Expertise 2 (adds +2 to the attribute for that test) and Focus of 2 (any natural roll of 1 or 2 on any d20 counts as two successes) each in a given skill, passing a Difficulty 1 test happens 75% of the time. Difficulty 2 reduces that to 25%. Difficulty 3 reduces it to 5%, and Difficulty 4 to 1%. Difficulty 5 is absolutely impossible to reach on two dice. Hitting the high difficulties reliably means buying dice. Threat is the most obvious way to do that, and it's universally applicable... but it comes at the cost that the GM might be able to do the same (or something equivalent) later. Spending Luck - a limited player resource, difficult to recover - is more reliable and comes without adding fuel to the fire (a Luck point spent gives you a d20 that's already rolled a 1 - no risk of Repercussions, and if you've got Focus, an automatic two successes). Assisting a task lets one character add a d20 tested against his skills to someone else's test. Certain skill tests have specific ways of boosting dice pools - Mutant Chronicles and Infinity let you spend Reloads (an abstract unit of ammunition) to get bonus d20s and damage dice on attacks), often drawing on some limited circumstance or player-side resource. A few talents let a character buy two dice for each Threat on particular tests, giving them a better deal for the cost. There are a few ways to get those extra dice, not only Threat. Threat is the baseline, the universal option.

From that perspective alone, Threat is one of the ways that the player hits high difficulties, but it's otherwise not essential. And it's entirely possible to play that way.

However, there's also Momentum to consider. Getting more successes than the minimum required is advantageous - those successes become Momentum. Momentum is a degrees-of-success mechanic, so the more you get the better you succeed, but it's designed to be more versatile than that - a character could spend Momentum to take extra actions, succeed at a task more quickly, achieve more, give aid to an ally or hinder an enemy, etc, or all of the above, if they spread around what they spend their Momentum on. It serves as our 'stunts and manoeuvres' mechanic in combat, with the added advantage that you can see how you did before you choose what stunt you're doing. More than that, player characters can save spare Momentum, passing it into a group pool that any PC can draw from, so one character's successes can benefit someone else. Consequently, succeeding really well on a test is something to aspire to a lot of the time, which makes buying those extra dice more temping.

At that point, it's entirely possible for a single player to pump Threat into the pool, then pass on the benefits to his allies (who aren't buying extra d20s) as Momentum.
 

I dislike the notion that an NPC must always exist in a specific, singular state (indeed, that element has more in common with computer games than anything else - NPCs as a pre-set and immutable package of stats). Fights aren't fair, they're not all equal, and nobody should enter battle with the certainty that "I'm fighting X, so I'm probably going to win", and the uncertainty and variation that comes from an additional factor that they can't 100% plan for is a valuable one for keeping action scenes tense, and keeping foes as viable threats regardless of how powerful the PCs have gotten.
What it has most in common with is reality, where there is variance between individuals but each person is consistent in its own state (barring outside factors like fatigue, intoxication, etc).

But the point is taken. You're trying to enforce a tone, and the players have already agreed to not question inconsistencies, back when you all decided to play the game in the first place. The game can be more successful with its target audience by intentionally excluding players who won't buy into that.
 

N01H3r3

Explorer
What it has most in common with is reality, where there is variance between individuals but each person is consistent in its own state (barring outside factors like fatigue, intoxication, etc).
True... but those outside factors, and all those little variables too small for the system to accurately model, are what we use dice for. The Threat system permits a little more control over those variables from the GM's perspective (without giving absolute control).

Plus, it helps cover those situations where two otherwise-identical NPCs should be different. Those two city guards aren't the same in every way... they've got the same stats for the sake of convenience, but here's a way to make them distinct in the players' memories.

But the point is taken. You're trying to enforce a tone, and the players have already agreed to not question inconsistencies, back when you all decided to play the game in the first place. The game can be more successful with its target audience by intentionally excluding players who won't buy into that.
As can any game - every game works best in the hands and minds of those who accept the underlying assumptions of the system and setting.
 

pollico

First Post
True... but those outside factors, and all those little variables too small for the system to accurately model, are what we use dice for. The Threat system permits a little more control over those variables from the GM's perspective (without giving absolute control).

Plus, it helps cover those situations where two otherwise-identical NPCs should be different. Those two city guards aren't the same in every way... they've got the same stats for the sake of convenience, but here's a way to make them distinct in the players' memories.


As can any game - every game works best in the hands and minds of those who accept the underlying assumptions of the system and setting.
That second part is SO true: trying to play original D&D with people (veterans of other games, but that haven't played Gary Gigax thing -its possible-) who are not assumed or understand what they are going to do... Its a waste of time. Nor the game, its rules or its background are going to impress or interest them. At least if they are not aware of its qualities, and they have to avoid prejudices to all enjoy the ride...

And yes, every game has to be played withing its own context. You don't play the same a high fantasy setting as a dark fantasy one.
 

Water Bob

Adventurer
In reading this discussion about Threat, I still don't get why it is needed.

Without doing a lot of quoting from the above and writing a wall of text, the simple question is: Why is Threat needed at all? Why is is practical. How does is help or improve the game?

Because, from what I see in all these examples, it is used express the GM's will.

Well, can't he do that already?

Doesn't the GM do everything that has been expressed as the use of the Threat Mechanic in all the examples above? Or, in other words, if you take the Threat Mechanic out, what's lost? What's different about the game?





Let's say you sit down to play the new Conan RPG, and the GM says, "No matter how high the Threat Pool becomes, I will not use Threat in the game for any reason."

What's different about this game, now?

Won't the GM still run his game, make it interesting, throw obstacles in front of the PCs?

Is the only real use of the Threat Mechanic is as a tool to keep players from throwing more than 2d20 for every task throw?
 

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