Conan's Morality

[GreyLord]

Conan was amoral. He was written as a savage force of nature red in tooth and claw He had a sense of fairness that was not swayed by the civilized.

This is typically what's seen of Conan...as a force of Nature.

However if I were to classify him, I'd say he started more as a Chaotic Neutral type of character and eventually became more of a Neutral type character.

 

[Alzrius]

Conan seems pretty well content to let most of the women he knows make the first move, in terms of sex (bear in mind that I've only recently started reading Howard's Conan stories - about a half-dozen or so at this point - so I could be way off base).

True, he follows Valeria simply because he wants her in Red Nails, and its implied that they have sex at the end of the story, but in most other cases it honestly seems like he just waits for women to throw themselves at him. Consider Belit in Queen of the Black Coast, or Yasmela in Black Colossus - both basically throw themselves at Conan, and he's happy to oblige.

In regards to his being a leader of men in a military sense, it's hard to say, but I don't think he'd particularly care to rein in any soldiers under his command who wanted to rape some enemy women. In Black Colossus, Conan blithely notes that plunder is good for a mercenary company, so he's fine with that happening while he's in charge.

More generally though, Conan seems to have a very "live and let die" attitude. He doesn't want anyone telling him what to do, and he extends the same treatment to others. He may not always care for their choices, but unless they start a fight with him, he seems pretty laissez-faire.

 

[Tonguez]

I've just finished readin 'A Witch Shall Be Born' which quite plainly refers to Contantius' men debauching any woman they please, and to Salomes infamous revelries wherethe unfortunatey ladies of the court, both married women and virgins are forced to participate.

Conan wants revenge and eventually takes over the Zuagir nomads and leads them back to overthrow Salome, restoring it back to the true queen. REH states the the Khaurani were worried that the Cimmerian barbarian and the desert raiders would be no different that the Shemite oppressors however Conan is honourable and after getting his revenge leaves Khauran and leads the Zuagir away to raid Turan.

=> What alignment does that make him?

 

[Water Bob]

What's hard for me to believe is that Howard's audience in the '30s would ever once have considered the question of whether or not Conan's men raped women and murdered children.

I think they read the stories for escapism, and with much the same view as they'd have read about the criminal exploits of John Dillinger and Bonnie & Clyde.

See, you're trying to apply today's paradigm, where we're all cynical and read George R. R. Martin and Joe Abercrombie to the '30s and figuring that if people then didn't think like we do now, then they must be less intelligent, inquisitive or otherwise somehow naive. That's a fundamentally flawed approach right there.

Howard writes, in Red Nails....

"You know Zarallo didn't have enough knaves to whip me out of camp, " he grinned. "Of course I followed you. Lucky thing for you, too, wench! When you knifed that Stygian officer, you forfeited Zarallo's favor and protection, and you outlawed yourself with the Stygians."

"I know it," she replied sullenly. "But what else could I do? You know what my provocations was."

"Sure," he agreed. "If I'd been there, I'd have knifed him myself. But if a woman must live in the war-camps of men, she can expect such things."

So, I do think that Howard's audience of the 30's considered the question of whether or not Conan's men raped women and murdered children, because Howard, himself, draws attention to it in his prose.

And, although I agree that most fiction is escapism, Howard's Conan leans toward the more gritty, realic form of es escapism.

Plus, the above proves that "today's paradigm" is much closer to Howard's day than some people think.

Conan seems pretty well content to let most of the women he knows make the first move, in terms of sex (bear in mind that I've only recently started reading Howard's Conan stories - about a half-dozen or so at this point - so I could be way off base).

No, I think you are correct. Even in the Red Nails story (ironic title, eh?), Howard writes...

He laughed at her insolence and flexed his mighty bicepts.

After chasing Valeria for leagues and point blank telling her that he wants to bed her..

"Conan the Cimmerian!" ejaculated the woman. "What are you doing on my trail?"

Interesting choice of words here.

He grinned hardly, and his fierce blue eyes burned with a light any woman could understand as they ran over her magnificent figure, lingering on the swell of her splendid breasts beneath the light shirt, and the clear white flesh displayed between breeches and boot tops.

"Don't you know?" He laughed. "Haven't I made my admiration for you plain ever since I first saw you."

"A stallion could have made it no plainer," she answered disdainfully.

Flexing his muscles and giving her "the look", staring her down as a starving wolf stares at a rabbit--I think you're correct in that Conan first tried to motivate Valeria to come to him.

And, we don't know what happened between them when they first met in the camp.

I'm guessing that Conan knows he's got a physique that women find attractive, and so he uses it to his advantage as any of us would.

When that doesn't work, though--"...she answered disdainfully."--he'll resort to other means to get that which intrigues him. In this case, he traveled leagues after the wench and told her, straight up, "Haven't I made my admiration for you plain ever since I first saw you."

In Black Colossus, Conan blithely notes that plunder is good for a mercenary company, so he's fine with that happening while he's in charge.

Yes. I think it's the comics and pastiches (other than Offutt's books, of course) that change Conan's character from the grim-n-gritty survivalist that Howard describes into the sterotypical hero that we find mainly in non-Howard sources.

I'm reading the Dark Horse Conan collections, right now. I'm almost finished with Book 9 - Free Companions. And, there is a scene where a couple of Conan's Free Company soldiers run after a farm girl to rape her. Conan steps in, knocks their heads, and basically says that he'll have none of that kind of behavior in his Free Company.

That's not Howard's Conan--not what we see in Red Nails, The Frost Giant's Daughter, or even Black Colossus.

I'm of the opinion that Conan allowed his men to rape and pillage and murder and thought nothing of it.

Anti-hero.

 

[Tonguez]

But Conan never crossed the line of actually raping anyone himself. If anything Conan displays a strong moral code that just happens to be at odds with civilised codes. He has no qualms about killing enemies, but will not debase them, he fulfils his duty and oaths and he generally will not harm the 'weak' and downtrodden = he could very well be Neutral Good.


Conan is certainly lusty in his appetites, and while he isstraight up about what he wants from Valeria, he doesn't force himself on her, she must still be 'willing' and that is a critical point.
(Of course the willingness of a woman to swoon and be ravished by the powerful barbarian is a whole different essay, and probably more reflective of 1930's sentiment. Also The Frost Giants Daughter is a case of ensorclement so can not be used as a reflection of Conans character)

 

[S'mon]

I'm reading the Dark Horse Conan collections, right now. I'm almost finished with Book 9 - Free Companions. And, there is a scene where a couple of Conan's Free Company soldiers run after a farm girl to rape her. Conan steps in, knocks their heads, and basically says that he'll have none of that kind of behavior in his Free Company.

That's not Howard's Conan--not what we see in Red Nails, The Frost Giant's Daughter, or even Black Colossus.

I can see REH's Conan doing that, if the girl aroused his pity - but it would be done more or less on a whim, not part of a consistent moral code. And like I said, he'd be much more likely to intervene on behalf of a Hyborean girl than more distant races.

What I do know is that REH would not draw attention to Conan allowing his men to rape someone, it would only be implied backstory. Bit like how he's often a pirate but you never get detailed description of him massacring innocent merchants.

 

[Umbran]

Conan needs morals like a fish needs a bicycle.

 

[El Mahdi]

"Happiness is to crush all non-tetrapod craniates. To see them driven before you on bicycles, and hear the lamentation of their spawn!"





Damn! Sorry Umbran - "must spread some around..."

 

[Argyle King]

I think one of the reasons why Conan (at times) stood up for the common man is because he believed that a man should be measured by his worth, skill, and deeds rather than by some arbitrary system of birth as defined by the so called 'civilized' and 'noble' bloodlines.

Aside from that, I think his main concern was what would promote himself. He did have friends and at time worked with people toward common goals, but, in the end (most of the time) Conan does what is best for Conan. Earlier, someone said he was opportunistic; I think that's one of the most accurate comments in the thread.

 

[Water Bob]

I think the perception of Conan is colored by how one came to know Conan. If through the original Howard stories, Conan is one thing. If through the pastiche novels and short stories, Conan is something else. If through the comics, Conan is yet another thing. If through other media, like the cartoon TV show or the movies, Conan is still another shade of his Howardian color.