Concept: Half-Gestalt classes, or Sub-Jobs

[Herobizkit]

I recently played Final Fantasy XI Online and the concept of sub-jobs intrigued me. In short, your character has one main class and one secondary class. The secondary class is always half the level of the main class; both can be changed at will, with the caveat that your sub-class never exceeds more than half the main class, no matter what level the sub-class is or was (and the other caveat that you must be at least level 20[?] before you may choose a sub-class).

If I understand the concept correctly, this means that if you chose Fighter-20 as your main class, you could choose White Mage (ie Healer) and begin earning XP as a Fighter-20/Healer-1. For every 2 classes you gain in Fighter, you'd gain one in Healer. The concept (I guess) is to level a job as high as possible so you can access abilities when you choose it as either a main class or a sub-class.

I rather like the concept, so let's play What If... and hope I snag some game mechanic gurus. (Like Thanee, for example

Changing "jobs" aside, what IF:
a) A player could choose a "sub-job" and earn levels as a Gestalt. For every 2 levels in their main class, they get the abilities (and best BAB, saves, etc.) of their sub-class of half their level in their base class. A Rogue (for example) who takes Fighter as sub-class would get full weapon and armor prof. at Rogue-2, as well as a full BAB, a bonus feat, and a d10 for HP. Same Rogue who takes Sorcerer at Rogue-2 gets spells, and so on. Once chosen, this sub-job cannot be changed.

b) Weirder idea: Characters can find "Job Orbs" or what have you that give them the requisite abilities acc'd to their base level, or perhaps at a set level (so theoretically one could get a Fighter-3 "Job Orb" or a Cleric-7 with the pre-req of twice the Orb's level in their base class).

Thoughts, ideas, criticisms? I realize this only adds to the alleged "video game" feel of 3.x, but I think it's spiffy.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

Heres an idea.

Dump multi-classing. Prime class and Secondary class can each branch into a prestige class, but must be tracked seperatly.

Secondary class can only be increased with the primary, to reduce reverse engineering problems.

Both classes cost standard XP for that level. Secondary can only go up to 1/2, rounded down, that of the primary.

Starting off at 1st level may need some personal tweeking, because with the cost structure below, your first level in the secondary class would be free. This may not be a bad thing, since low level adventures can be difficult.

Lets say a fighter 3/cleric 1 wants to level up to a fighter 4/cleric 2. He would need 4000xp, 3000 for the fighter class, 1000 for the cleric.

This would effectivly be a 6th level PC for 7000xp, instead of 15000. You would also be able to meat PrC classes a little easier. It certainly wouldn't be as powerful as full gestalt, but a 10th level fighter with a good will save and 3rd level cleric spells would make a difference in game play. Stats would be handled as a gestalt class build. Saves would be fort +4(fighter), ref +0(they equal out on that one), will +3(cleric wins). Spells as cleric, feats as fighter, D10 hit points, combine class skill lists and maximums, better of the two skill point totals(tie in this case).

To compare, a level 20 fighter needs 190000xp. A fighter 20/cleric 10 would need 235000xp.

As far as job orbs, that is too video game for me, and probably a paper headache. You'd be better of giving the palyers a PC pool, and letting them draft PCs at the start of each adventure. If you want them to be a non permanent item that gives you those abilities while worn, something along the lines of a legacy weapon may work.

 

[Herobizkit]

I was hoping for more input, but so it goes.

I like your idea, Jondor. Charging the same amount of XP seems fair for multi-classing at staggered levels.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I actually had an idea for something like this a while back. Only my idea was based off of FF Tactics. Probably not much difference, but I haven't played FF XI, so I don't know.

My idea was to keep it simple. Just pick your primary class and secondary class. Level ups occur as normal for the primary (based on the XP table). For the secondary, just develop a table to give between 1/2 and 2/3 the progression, with level ups for secondary occuring simultaneously with the primary level ups. Under my idea, the secondary class would only add proficiencies, class skills, spells and anything listed under "special". The HD, BAB, saves, and skill points aren't affected by the secondary class, so that a fighter/wizard is a fighter with some supplemental magic, while a wizard/fighter is a full wizard with fighter bonus feats. Seemed simple and balanced like that.

If you go so far as to ban additional multiclassing and prestige classes on the basis that the secondary class grants enough versatility that they aren't needed, the resulting classes probably wouldn't be much more powerful than the standard set-up.

As for your What-ifs, a) seems kind of pointless. When you say, "they get the abilities (and best BAB, saves, etc.) of their sub-class of half their level in their base class," in most cases, isn't the difference between a weak ability in a full class and a strong one in a "half-class" very small or non-existent? For example, the BAB of a level 20 wizard - 10/5 and a level 10 fighter - 10/5. Or did I misunderstand you? What-if b) I honestly don't understand at all. Please explain it more thoroughly.

 

[Jack Simth]

Another thought:

Secondary class is Gestalt as normal, but instead of being a PC class, it's an NPC class - so you might have a Wizard/Warrior, or a Fighter/Adept; PrC's take both sides of the Gestalt.

 

[Herobizkit]

As for your What-ifs, a) seems kind of pointless. When you say, "they get the abilities (and best BAB, saves, etc.) of their sub-class of half their level in their base class," in most cases, isn't the difference between a weak ability in a full class and a strong one in a "half-class" very small or non-existent? For example, the BAB of a level 20 wizard - 10/5 and a level 10 fighter - 10/5. Or did I misunderstand you? What-if b) I honestly don't understand at all. Please explain it more thoroughly.

Thanks for your respons, StreamOfTheSky. I'll see if I can clarify.

As you know, Gestalt characters normally advance in like levels and take the best options of both classes. A Fighter-1/Wizard-1 would have Good Fort and Will saves (Fighter has good Fort save, Wizard has good Will), a +1 BAB (the better between the two), martial weapon and armor proficiency (also better proficiencies from warrior), and a bonus feat, as well as the wizard spells and the free Scribe Scroll feat.

Going by my concept and using the same example, once the same character gets to Fighter 2, he chooses Wizard-1 as his sub-class. For reaching level 2, his BAB increases by +1, his Fort save increases by 1, and he gains a new feat. Now, for adding on the Wizard class, he also gains +2 to his Will save, access to Wizard spells and the Scribe Scroll feat.

Continuing the trend, when our Fighter-4 gains Wizard-2, he'll have earned another point to his Will save and more Wizard spells in addition to all his regular Fighter goodies.

The sub-job's purpose is to enhance the main job, but by definition would not be equal to the main job as a regular Gestalt would be.

As for "Job Orbs", it's essentially handing out free levels in the same manner as the above example, but all at once. Say you're playing a Fighter-4, and you find a "Job Orb" of a Wizard-2. Your base level is twice the level of the Orb, so you can equip it. (If you had a Wizard-4 orb, you couldn't equip it unitl you got a Character level of 8). You now gain all the abilities of a Wizard-2; +1 BAB, +3 Will save, and a (most likely pre-set) list of spells you can now cast, in addition to the Scribe Scroll feat. This bonus does not change as you increase in level (so the Orb is always a Wizard-2 Orb, unless the DM wants to use Levelling Items rules). In a number of ways, it's very similar to the old 1e Hat of Difference.

Hope that clears it up a little.

 

[Herobizkit]

Another thought:

Secondary class is Gestalt as normal, but instead of being a PC class, it's an NPC class - so you might have a Wizard/Warrior, or a Fighter/Adept; PrC's take both sides of the Gestalt.

Not a bad idea either, Jack. By using the three "archetypes" rather than specific PC classes, you add whatever "oomph" you'd like to your base character: weapon and armor proficiencies, combat, and better HP for the Warrior, spells for the Adept, and skill points for the Expert. I think I like this concept even more.

 

[Tagnik]

I thought of just adding PrC's as Kits.

 

[hafrogman]

I would think it would be best to use the fractional BAB and saves to avoid mathematical confusion.

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

To simplify things even further, drop the 1 level per X level thing.

Everyone has a base class. In order to give everyone a litlle something extra, allow them to take the bonus abilities of one class, based on one of their six abilities. This would limit the addition of levels after a certain point, which would help keep things from being ovepowered, but allow some uniqueness.

For example, a fighter may take the abilities of a rogue, up to a level equal to their current level, or their DEX bonus, whichever is less. ( see, a way to encourage a dex based fighter, ooh, wait, thats a different thread... NM). You would want to do a point buy system, to Insure that all the PCs start equal. This would allow a very small bonus of extra abilities, probably no more than five or six levels even at level 20+. But it could add a level of uniuquness that even PrCs have a hard time with. A high Dex fighter could be very powerful at low levels, say a fighter 5, with the abilities of a rogue 3 or 4. But at higher levels, they would still be at a simillar level, say a fighter 15, rogue 4 or 5.

Another example. A standard wizard build often includes a high Int and Dex. Give a wizard of X level four or five levels of rouge for fun, (based on a high Dex), and you could have a mage exemplifying social, knowledge, or stealthy skills, or some of each. He could go fighter and have finesse, range, mobility, or multiple AoO. He could go monk and add BAB and IUA for touch spells, or AC.


Even adding the abilities of one extra class every five levels of base could add a lot of flavor.

Also, in keeping with the very nice idea of using NPC clases, what about the three generic classes from UA? Take a base class, then add one of the three generic classes for X levels.