Concerned about DI

[Khairn]

note from Plane Sailing - these posts were split out from a different discussion thread

This part confuses me. Why do you have all of these concerns, if you have made the decision to not play it? I get confused by all this negativity over the new edition without anyone actually having seen the actual product yet. It is happening in my group also. There are a couple of people that have said: "Not interested" just by asking them if they knew that 4th edition has been announced....

I just don't get it. Maybe it is just me, but I like to make a decision, after it comes out. Right now, if I were WotC, your comments have less weight, as it seems that you cannot be won over, as you have made your decision without any regards to what the product may actually be.

It may seem funny but some of us really think that the direction WotC is going with 4E is a mistake. Both for the game that we've enjoyed playing for years (decades in my case) and for the industry in general. And as this is an open forum where differing opinions are being requested and shared I felt it was as good a place as any to voice my perceptions.

There are many reasons why players are upset. For some its because they've spent so much money already on 3E and 3.5 and feel the new edition (3rd new edition in 8 years) is just a money-grab by WotC, for others its the game features that have been announced do not suit their gaming style, and for others (like me) its our concern about the digital / internet functions that are being developed in tandem to support and enhance each other.

And I think its important to talk about these concerns as I'm not the only one who has them.

As for my comments having less weight ... I became irrelevent to WotC when their decision was made to make "online gamers" (both MMORPG and RPG) their target market for 4E and the support they will provide for the game. I'm an avid MMORPG, RPG and online gamer, but many of my gaming buddies are not. So much of what is being offered is going to be denied them simply because they dont have regular computer & printer access.

But your situation may be different, and if 4E excites you, then I'm happy for you. To me and my group its not doing a thing.

 

[rjdafoe]

It may seem funny but some of us really think that the direction WotC is going with 4E is a mistake. Both for the game that we've enjoyed playing for years (decades in my case) and for the industry in general. And as this is an open forum where differing opinions are being requested and shared I felt it was as good a place as any to voice my perceptions.

There are many reasons why players are upset. For some its because they've spent so much money already on 3E and 3.5 and feel the new edition (3rd new edition in 8 years) is just a money-grab by WotC, for others its the game features that have been announced do not suit their gaming style, and for others (like me) its our concern about the digital / internet functions that are being developed in tandem to support and enhance each other.

And I think its important to talk about these concerns as I'm not the only one who has them.

I understand. The part I do not understand is your "I have made my decison already" part.

The cool thing about all this, is if it is not what you want, stay with 3.5, it is OGL after all and will have support for many years to come, just not exactly from WotC. That is the reason for it, afterall. I understand that people feel the need to steer the process into what they consider the right way to go. However, as it stands now, the DI is optional. Could it be made mandatory? Sure. Anything can be. They could make the miniatures mandatory if they wanted. D&D has always been about picking and choosing what you want to have in your campaign, and I think it will continue to do that. They have not shown any rules associated with any of the DI content. The online tabletop is just a graphical representation of what most of us have on our tables while playing already. Maybe some people are going to buy a projector and move their "table" to a screen. That is great for them, and may be cheaper in the long run instead of buying minis, for them. The articles from the DI will be as mandatory as Dragon articles. The DM, as always, has complete control over what they want in their games.

The 4E core rules (PH, MM, DMG) will be the framework of what is everyones own version of a campaign world.

 

[Knight Otu]

Why? Because nearly everything that is accessable from the Wizards main D&D page seems to show that DDI is an integral part of the "new D&D". Because Bill Slavicsek, in his Ampersand article says:
Plus you add the teaser video, the video of the GenCon presentation, and you can see where someone who does not want to be forced to buy into a "monthly service game" would be concerned.

Sure, I can see that. But now we have word that the DI is not mandatory.

First off, I never said that WotC would say that its necessary, I agree that they would cut their own throats if they did.

Well, I never said you said Wizards would say it is necessary. I think it's better to s focus on what is being said by everyone.
And let's not forget - if the DI somehow ends up being non-optional, people will hear about it, whether Wizards advertises it or not. The throat-cutting would happen, one way or another.

What I am saying is that it makes dum-dum basic 101, business sense for WotC to create the DD in such a way that it is indispensible. If you do not understand or believe that I'm not certain the rest of my reasoning will make any sense.

And I am saying that this is making no business sense to me to reduce your target market when you can at least retain its current size by making the DI optional.

Taken from a purely financial & business point of view, $10 a month for a year is worth more than 5x $30 books bought unevenly throughout the year, because of the financial stability it would provide. My actual ratio above may be off but the principle is valid.

That's a per person analysis. If fewer people buy a more expensive product, there will be a point where such a step will result in less overall profit, and by artificially reducing the target market to boot, you strongly move into that area. What I am saying is that keeping the DI optional ensures a market size and potential product costs where profits would be higher than making the DI mandatory.

But hey ... its just my crystal ball.

Ah, that explains it. You're using a Sunken-Valley-brand crystal ball. You should try the Deegan-brand!

 

[Keefe the Thief]

It may seem funny but some of us really think that the direction WotC is going with 4E is a mistake. Both for the game that we've enjoyed playing for years (decades in my case) and for the industry in general. And as this is an open forum where differing opinions are being requested and shared I felt it was as good a place as any to voice my perceptions.

There are many reasons why players are upset. For some its because they've spent so much money already on 3E and 3.5 and feel the new edition (3rd new edition in 8 years) is just a money-grab by WotC, for others its the game features that have been announced do not suit their gaming style, and for others (like me) its our concern about the digital / internet functions that are being developed in tandem to support and enhance each other.

And I think its important to talk about these concerns as I'm not the only one who has them.

As for my comments having less weight ... I became irrelevent to WotC when their decision was made to make "online gamers" (both MMORPG and RPG) their target market for 4E and the support they will provide for the game. I'm an avid MMORPG, RPG and online gamer, but many of my gaming buddies are not. So much of what is being offered is going to be denied them simply because they dont have regular computer & printer access.

But your situation may be different, and if 4E excites you, then I'm happy for you. To me and my group its not doing a thing.

This is all good and well, but, this is the thread about improving communication with WotC. Is it necessary that you change it into a discussion of the DI and 4th edition in general. I really mean no offense and understand your criticism. But why in this thread?

 

[DaveMage]

Taken from a purely financial & business point of view, $10 a month for a year is worth more than 5x $30 books bought unevenly throughout the year, because of the financial stability it would provide. My actual ratio above may be off but the principle is valid.

Since Wizards probably makes between $7.50 and $12 for that $30 book, I'd say that $9.95/month is the equivalent of selling you 10-12 books a year. Potentially very worthwhile for them.

 

[DItheringFool]

There are many reasons why players are upset. For some its because they've spent so much money already on 3E and 3.5 and feel the new edition (3rd new edition in 8 years) is just a money-grab by WotC, for others its the game features that have been announced do not suit their gaming style, and for others (like me) its our concern about the digital / internet functions that are being developed in tandem to support and enhance each other.

And for some it's all four - I'm still bitter over Dragon and Dungeon...

...which is related to "improving communication" by reminding WotC that for everyone I game with, a lot of this anger could have circumnavigated by actually making the community feel involved instead being told they're involved.

 

[sjmiller]

Sure, I can see that. But now we have word that the DI is not mandatory.

Can you quote where this is said? I ask because nothing on the WotC D&D page seems to indicate this.

 

[rjdafoe]

This is all good and well, but, this is the thread about improving communication with WotC. Is it necessary that you change it into a discussion of the DI and 4th edition in general. I really mean no offense and understand your criticism. But why in this thread?

I acutally think this highlights that WoTC has to do a very good job of communicating that the DI is not required to play 4th edition. How they need to do that? I am not sure, as I fully understand that, but some people have their questions and concerns. From everything that I read, the DI seems to be the concern. To me, it has been communicated clearly, but from what it seems, not to everyone.

So, if anything can come out of this, it is look at what you are saying about 4th edition D&D, and make sure it is stressed everywhere it makes sense that the DI is an option part to 4th Edition. I suppose one could say that it is an enhancement like Dragon and Dungeon, official, yet optional and in a digital format instead of a paper.

 

[rjdafoe]

Can you quote where this is said? I ask because nothing on the WotC D&D page seems to indicate this.

From the main page of www.dndinsider.com, click on the gleemax D&D portal, click on the 4th edition message boards to get there. Topic is Compiled 4E FAQ.

Here is a direct link:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=908272

Here is a snipit on the FAQ about if you need subscription:

You don't need it to play D&D, but you may find some of what it offers to be of value in making it easier and more convenient.

This warrants a link on the main D&D page I think!

 

[Khairn]

This is all good and well, but, this is the thread about improving communication with WotC. Is it necessary that you change it into a discussion of the DI and 4th edition in general. I really mean no offense and understand your criticism. But why in this thread?

If you take a look at Mike L. response to my post I think you'll see how my observations / perceptions do tie into the communication issue. I'm not trying to belabor a point and will happily move this to another thread in the future. I guess I'm just hoping that it won't be lost in the deluge of pro & con threads that are popping up everywhere.