D&D 3E/3.5 Concerning 3E, 4E & Tiers

[Angel Tarragon]

One thing I've been contemplating for 3rd Edition, should I would to port ideas into it from 4E that is based on tiers is to break the levels as follows:

L 1-6: Courageous (Heroic)
L 7-12: Heroic (Paragon)
L 13-20: Legendary (Epic)

Levels 21+ would use a house-ruled epic system very loosely based on the 3.x Epic Rules.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

One thing I've been contemplating for 3rd Edition, should I would to port ideas into it from 4E that is based on tiers is to break the levels as follows:

L 1-6: Courageous (Heroic)
L 7-12: Heroic (Paragon)
L 13-20: Legendary (Epic)

Levels 21+ would use a house-ruled epic system very loosely based on the 3.x Epic Rules.

Giving the tiers a name is one thing. But you need to ensure that you have "stuff" that makes these tiers unique. Level 1-6 is already a strange spectrum - at 1st level, you have the potential for instant-kills by Goblins, and at 5th level, you already get mass destruction of enemy groups. At 1st level, people have a fair chance of failing climb and swim checks, at 5th level, you have access to fly.

 

[Kerrick]

I think his intent is to set what the players can reasonably do in those tiers, and change spells/powers to fit them - that's what I plan to do.

At Courageous level, for example, the PCs would be saving villages and doing minor stuff - by the time they're L6, they would be known to the local ruler.

At Paragon level, they'd start moving out into the world (well, more), affecting things on a national level; by the time they're L12, they'd be known to the king (or whoever's running the nation), though they probably wouldn't be able to gain an audience without a good reason.

At Legendary, they would probably be hopping all over the world and making short forays into other planes; they plots they're involved in would be world-spanning. By the time they're L20, they'd be known to many rulers and even the common folk, and maybe even a few powerful extraplanars.

I think this is a great idea, though I'd make the second tier Heroic, the third Paragon, and change epic to Legendary.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Giving the tiers a name is one thing. But you need to ensure that you have "stuff" that makes these tiers unique. Level 1-6 is already a strange spectrum - at 1st level, you have the potential for instant-kills by Goblins, and at 5th level, you already get mass destruction of enemy groups. At 1st level, people have a fair chance of failing climb and swim checks, at 5th level, you have access to fly.

Right. I think 3E's points where the game shifts dramatically are:
5th level: Fly, fireball, wild shape, paladin's mount. PrCs are becoming attainable around this point as well. These abilities are a changes of pretty high impact.
9th level: Planeshift, raise dead, teleport - these three spells change the nature of adventures single-handedly.
11th-13th level: We get save-or-dies, many PrC combos start to come into full effect, characters have enough equipment to be either very powerful or very versatile. This changes strategies across the board.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

So, kinda like the split that Ryan Dancey suggested D&D has, only collapsing it into 3 tiers instead of 4?

Ryan Stoughton brings it up at the beginning of his intro to E6 here:
http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3750525&postcount=1

For those that don't like clicking around through links, here's what Dancey said:

D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile.

You will likely find that access to a handful of spells (and to a lesser extent, some magic items) makes certain kinds of adventures (mostly "dungeon crawls") impossible. You will be able to identify those spells easily (they're the ones that the PCs "out of the box" of the dungeon map. By fiat, you can remove those spells, and that keeps the game nicely centered in adventures where the PCs can influences pretty much only those things they can see with the naked eye.

You will find that if some of your players min-max their abilities; especially the rogue and the cleric, they will create situations where the difficulties they need to face to challenge their abilities will have target values (DCs) much higher than those used against the rest of the party. That is typically mostly harmless, because you'll be able to see that coming, and scale the necessary challenges upwards to keep the game fun for them, without impacting the rest of the players much.

The key issue you will have to decide on is whether to use the baseline assumptions regarding the ability of spellcasters to make magic items. If you allow potions & scrolls only (which is pretty common) you will need to pay special attention to the equipment worn by the PCs to keep them properly equipped to face tougher and tougher monsters (per the Monster Manual). If you do allow the casters to create items, or you assume that magic items can be "bought" off the rack made to order, then the players need to take responsibility for dealing with their own equipment; if they fritter money away on things that don't keep them competitive with the escalating challenges, they'll pay the price.

I guess I'm just not clear on what the point is.

 

[Quartz]

I think I said it in the other thread but to me it's not the level of the characters but the spells available. Key markers are Fly / Fireball, Raise Dead, and Wish. Add a dose of multiclassing - say you can only take levels in a spellcasting class every other level - and you've pushed the breakpoints back.

 

[Kerrick]

Yeah, I think magic definitely sets the boundaries of what can be done. An easy fix for that would be to adjust the spell levels and/or reduce the spells in power (though many have already been nerfed, so moving them upward would likely be more viable). Having an idea of what the PCs should be able to do, though, sets a good guideline for what they can do. If you don't think PCs at L5 should be wiping out small armies of enemies or flying around, move fireball and fly up to the next tier. If you don't want them engaging in interplanar transport (without special circumstances, like finding a gate) before L15, bump up plane shift. Same with class abilities - move them up or down in level to conform to where you feel they should be in terms of utility.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I set up tiers as follows
0 (mooks) - 4th Mortal Tier : most people live and die in this tier, only a few have the possibility of going beyond this.
5th - 10th Heroic Tier - markers: fly, fireball, haste, revify,
11th - 16th Paragon Tier - markers: raise dead, teleport, (both moved to 6th level spells)
17th-20th Epic Tier - Wish, 9th level spells.


Tier Benefits:
Reserve hit points (SRD) convert at +1 hp per minute per tier.
People entering the heroic tier receive a +2 enhancement bonus to one ability score.
A magic or mundane item can be chosen as a signature item that increases in power as the character gains levels.

People entering the Paragon Tier receive a +2 enhancement to a second ability, and the previous enhancement increases to +4.

At the Epic Tier one ability enhancement increases to +6, one to +4 and all other abilities gain a +2 enhancement bonus.

The campaign will have less magic avalible for purchase, while trying to maintain the same power level. Reserve HP reduce should reduce dependece on wands, and ensure more realistic downtimes between fights. This hasn't been playtests yet.

 

[Zerakon]

What is it that you are trying to achieve with this? It seems like it is just labels on level groups; what am I missing?

(Edited because what I initially wrote seemed snarky and not curious.)