D&D General Tiered Enemies

[Stormonu]

It's a treadmill.

First, you fight blue blobs. Then red. Then the "fearsome" black blobs.

They're all the same thing, just with more hit points and bigger damage hits.

I don't mind the idea of a Orc Warrior vs. an Orc Shaman or even maybe an "Eye of Gruumsh" (who sort of works as an evil Paladin would), as long as they fit the world and you're not just treading the same thing, it works.

But truthfully, when the idea of a Horde of Orcs makes characters yawn instead of freeze in fear, that's a game beyond what I want to play.

 

[Chaltab]

It's a treadmill.

First, you fight blue blobs. Then red. Then the "fearsome" black blobs.

They're all the same thing, just with more hit points and bigger damage hits.

I don't mind the idea of a Orc Warrior vs. an Orc Shaman or even maybe an "Eye of Gruumsh" (who sort of works as an evil Paladin would), as long as they fit the world and you're not just treading the same thing, it works.

But truthfully, when the idea of a Horde of Orcs makes characters yawn instead of freeze in fear, that's a game beyond what I want to play.

I mean I would think a horde of regular orcs stops being a serious threat at level 6 when you can drop two fireballs a day.... Or two a short rest if you're a Fiend Pact Warlock.

 

[Reynard]

I personally don't like low tier "bosses" becoming mid-tier "lieutenants" and high tier "mooks". It breaks the fiction for me.

Better to give me completely different monsters on those roles at those tiers.

 

[Chaltab]

I think you're taking the terms a bit too literally. When I said the space ogre was a miniboss, I didn't mean that it was a commander with minions, I just meant that it was a hard enemy that the party had to focus down. A boss fight, not a liuetenant.

It was always a mook as far as the leaders of ogres' army were concerned.

 

[Reynard]

I think you're taking the terms a bit too literally. When I said the space ogre was a miniboss, I didn't mean that it was a commander with minions, I just meant that it was a hard enemy that the party had to focus down. A boss fight, not a liuetenant.

It was always a mook as far as the leaders of ogres' army were concerned.

Sure, but you still have to justify it in the fiction when the PCs face 1 at 3rd level and 12 at 9th level or whatever.

 

[Chaltab]

Sure, but you still have to justify it in the fiction when the PCs face 1 at 3rd level and 12 at 9th level or whatever.

I'm still not sure I understand. The PCs are stronger, it's not that the foes are weaker. The story justification is that the party is better at fighting things than they were 6 levels ago.

 

[toucanbuzz]

I don't always need to artificially bump all enemies to match the party's level. Rather, I can from time to time use lower-level enemies with more clever tactics than "we line up on a grid map and pummel one another."

In the AD&D Rod of the Seven Parts adventure, a 10th level party has a seriously nasty encounter with kobolds, along the lines of @PhD20 's "how to menace a 10th level party with goblins." They've got a superior ambush point in a cave system that blocks vision of their attacks, and nowadays I'd give them some traps (alchemical fire, terrain hazards) and a strategy of never directly engage. With bounded accuracy, this can be more than just annoying.

 

[Tonguez]

I absolutely loved 3x's ability to give creatures class levels and templates as they could be used to adapt simple base creatures to build an interesting story.
I didnt play 4e but monster roles seem a similar mini-template approach.

Im big on narrative and love 5e Lair Actions as a way to bring story into a combat, even if it is just goblins, having a way to move gobbos around, bring in traps and ranged or brutal attacks is fun

 

[Reynard]

I'm still not sure I understand. The PCs are stronger, it's not that the foes are weaker. The story justification is that the party is better at fighting things than they were 6 levels ago.

I guess I am not being clear.

At 3rd level, the ogre is presented as a boss -- a feared villain commanding goblins or whatever.

At 9th level, the ogre is just a grunt for a cloud giant villain or something.

The ogre as a piece of the fiction shifts its position in the world because the PCs leveled up, not because of anything that actually happened in play.

I would rather use different monsters for those different positions in the fiction.

 

[ezo]

I guess I am not being clear.

At 3rd level, the ogre is presented as a boss -- a feared villain commanding goblins or whatever.

At 9th level, the ogre is just a grunt for a cloud giant villain or something.

The ogre as a piece of the fiction shifts its position in the world because the PCs leveled up, not because of anything that actually happened in play.

I would rather use different monsters for those different positions in the fiction.

I explained why this makes sense here:

While an Ogre might be a boss at low-levels, maybe a leader of some bandits or marauders, that Ogre could "report" to a more powerful creature, such as a Giant, and later on be met as a mook in service to the Giant.

It is no different than criminal organizations where a sub-boss might be met by a beat cop, and later on the beat cop is a lead detective and meets that same "sub-boss" but who is now shown to be a "mook" in service to a mafia don or something.

The sub-boss might have even learned a few new tricks and so be more powerful than it was before, so it is still somewhat of a threat to the lead detective.

Perhaps you didn't see it or felt it wasn't adequate? Or maybe you just disagree with it?

Using your own example, the ogre doesn't shift posititions because the PCs leveled up, the ogre shifts positions because the PCs are now encountering the cloud giant... who is the real "boss" running the show. All the lower bosses (ogres et al.) report to the cloud giant and the ogres happen to be there at that time. If the PCs encounter the cloud giant and the ogre is bossing the giant around, that wouldn't fit most fictions at all.

Now, if the PCs had encountered the cloud giant at level 3, they would have seen the ogres in service to the cloud giant then; and would likely have to flee or be killed by such an obviously superior force. Of course, there might have been a bunch of goblins in that force as well, all listening to the giant and the ogres commanding them.

The fiction is at lower levels when the PCs happen upon the ogre he is the boss of the goblins in the area. The cloud giant just isn't around.

The fiction actually supports this concept of a low-level "boss" becoming a lackey for a high-level "boss" -- it is pretty much how things work IRL. A captain leads a unit in the field (or sergeant or whatever), but back at the command station the captain is getting the general his coffee.