D&D General 70% Of Games End At Lvl 7?

Switching characters can sometimes work, but often the characters become so entangled with the story of the campaign that it would be awkward to switch, especially if some several players did so.
This comes down to whether one is prioritizing the story of one's character or of the campaign as a whole. My own take is that a character's story can start, happen, and end while the campaign's story rolls on.
And furthermore the situation might be such that the character would not plausibly "leave" or "quit." Like they need to save the world or some boring crap like that and the campaign is about it, and they cannot just give up because the player wants to play another character. Though I probably agree with you that I prefer more sandboxy campaign structures without such "main plot" which largely avoids or at least minimises these issues.
I'm a big fan of the "stable of characters" concept. Also, IMO a campaign or setting should never have just one "main plot" but instead have a variety of things going on and maybe overlapping, such that different characters can find different things to engage with. Meanwhile, jumping back and forth from one storyline to another helps to keep things fresh in general.
 

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Yeah I'm thinking if this stat was similar back in the day all those XYZ 5/PrC2/PrC1/PrC3 type builds were essentially theory crafting.

I did have suspicions in 2002 after watching casuals play vs online assumptions.

And the rapid death of 4E. Fixed problems most groups won't see. 3.x played casually 3-7 is mostly fine imho.

Looking at what ex TSR veneers have said I suspect it was similar 1980s
Yeah, the theory crafting was crazy, I also thought the tier lists were pretty stupid or existed only for the theory crafters. The majority of people would play whichever class they liked and have fun.
 

Yeah, the theory crafting was crazy, I also thought the tier lists were pretty stupid or existed only for the theory crafters. The majority of people would play whichever class they liked and have fun.
There was a mechanical point to them. Let's say you have a campaign starting at 18th level. One player shows up with a druid. Another shows up with a CW Samurai. The third player brings a Warblade. The Samurai character is going to have absolutely nothing that he's good at compared to the rest of the party.
 

Do you think the 70% was accurate outside Beyond or if the number changed in last 6 or 7 year?

I think assuming more than 6 levels for a typical D&D campaign is wildly optimistic, though some might make it to the 7-12 range (especially if they start at 3 or something).

It boils down to table time. Time spent actually playing the game.

Some assumptions:
  1. The typical game is 2-4 hours, involving 2-4 people.
  2. The typical game happens 1/week. Given holidays, most months will have 3 sessions.
  3. Typically, PCs will gain 1 level every 3 sessions (might be 1 or 2 sessions at 1st or 2nd level).
  4. At 1 level / month, getting to 6th level requires six months of time at the table.
  5. The most common reason D&D games end is because life changes happen to enough players that the group breaks up.
If your life is the same as it was six months ago (you live in the same place, have the same amount of available free time, have roughly the same income, and your friends and family are all basically in the same place), then you are probably more stable than many. If every member of your group has the same life they had six months ago, it's a friggin' miracle.

D&D is traditionally designed as a 20 level game, but a lot of that design effort is wasted. It's part of the overall point that D&D is "too complicated" (a point I tend to agree with). It's also part of the root of a lot of martial/magical tension (so few people experience high-level magic in D&D in practice!), and part of why a concept like E6 has good legs (if you only usually play for 6 levels anyway...).

If 6e really wanted to be a revolution, it would explore what it looks like if you chop the top half of the level curve off the game and gave people a 1-10 play experience (which is still probably more than a lot of groups will see), with "epic" options for 10+ (so the folks who do 12 level or 15 level campaigns still have some big capstone options).

I'm a weird outlier then, most of the campaigns I run or played that my wife runs go to 20th.

Probably worth noting that most people on ENWorld are at a pretty extreme end of the fandom. We're posting on a D&D message board in The Year 2025, after all. I'd assume a greater portion of people here have seen a 1-20 campaign than in the general normie populace.

So...now that means between level 10 and 16, we have to squeeze all of both High Adventure and Ascension. It's not so bad that Greenhorn is short--we expect characters to grow out of that quickly. But with Budding Adventurer spread out so long, while High Adventure basically has to get force-marched through at an incredibly rapid pace, there's a real feeling that power levels escalate exponentially. Indeed, that they do so very suddenly without really clear reasons why (to the player). They just know that things don't feel quite right.

This is just another reason why D&D should in fact develop comprehensive Novice Level rules, which include spooling out proper levels almost indefinitely (not truly indefinitely, but pretty far). If it's going to offer, or at least appear to offer, extensive support across that broad a range, it needs to have ways for GMs to control how quickly things shift up or down the power curve. Its presence can't be meaningfully denied. You'll just piss off too many fans if you try to declare that only one or two strains are valid and everything else is verboten. But we gotta find a way to help players play at the scope and power level that makes them happy. Trying to squeeze everyone onto a single 20-level progression track where progress occurs at a very very roughly constant rate isn't working.

You mention squeezing things into 6 levels or squeezing things into 20 levels, but I think the problem is more that we're designing for campaigns to last two years when it'd be more realistic to design them to last nine months - we're designing for 20 levels when we only need a fraction of that. I'm on board with tier transitions less as a consequence of gaining levels, and more of a campaign style choice. It's genre. Some games would do good with the feeling that the PC's are basically normal people in extraordinary circumstances (like a level 1-4 vibe). Some games feature dragon-slayers and monster-stompers (like a level 11-16 vibe). Some games are "skilled professionals in over their head" (like a level 5-10 vibe). Some games are world-shaking heroes of legend (like a level 17-20 vibe). D&D's design doesn't have to shepherd you from one to the other, it can just hang out in one or two of those, and most games are going to be fine, since that's what happens in practice anyway. And they'll be fine without two years of "content" in that genre.

Unfortunately, I can't game design more hours into the day or days into the week in the real world. The only solutions I can offer have to be within the confines of the game itself.

I'm of the opinion that the confines should be tighter. Pacing is such an important element of play that D&D design has been very slow to get its head around, and this is a symptom of that. 5e and 4e and 3e have all had a pretty significant "big cake, small pan" problem, where the option proliferation has lead to a lot of hypothetical fun that isn't had in an actual session, because that shiny new spell or magic item looks good on the character sheet, but then doesn't see the light of day in play. Every healing potion that isn't drunk, every niche class ability that just never comes up, every forgotten buff, every sub-par feat that might be fun but isn't optimal for your build, every forgotten familiar's turn, every niche +1 bonus, every neglected species feature...they're all symptoms of having too much to do with the few hours of D&D that we do have in our lives.
 
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One thing i really like about 5e version of LoTR is that's capped at level 10.

From memory, i think idea is that you get from level 1 to level 2 after first session, 2-3 after session third session and for players that aren't complete beginners, you start at lv 3. Even taking that into consideration and average level up after 3-4 sessions, that's 12-16 or 15-19 sessions to get from 3-7lv or 1-7lv. With weekly sessions, 3-5 months of real time, if you play absolutely every weekend. Depending on timing and real world obligations, that can easily stretch to double that (6-10) months. Looking at my group for example, July and August are months people take summer vacations ( 3 weeks usually), with 5 of us in group, half of group is usually in July at sea with family, half of group is in August. 6 weeks of not playing. Then in September school starts, so last week of August and first of September is out. We are now at 8 weeks without session. That's 2 months of no play that's added to campaign length.

Yes, D&D is framed with levels 1-20. But not all campaigns need to start at 1 and go to 20. Wanna play tier 3-4? Start with late tier 2 or early tier 3 characters. If someone asked me how to make campaign that gets to level 20, first advice would be - start at levels 12-14. Thats 6-8 level ups, or 18-24 sessions, something that's doable in a year. Most campaign fizzle out due to passing of time and people getting bored of playing same character for too long.
 


There was a mechanical point to them. Let's say you have a campaign starting at 18th level. One player shows up with a druid. Another shows up with a CW Samurai. The third player brings a Warblade. The Samurai character is going to have absolutely nothing that he's good at compared to the rest of the party.
Depends on the players. Are they power gamers or just there to have fun. I think in just a regular game of players who don't spend a lot of time online checking builds, that samurai player would be doing fine and the group would be having fun.
 

When a player creates a character, they likely have some core idea of who the character is/will be, or what the player wants to do with them. Maybe it is a matter of tactical powers, or theme, or exploring personality, or whatever. And, yes, it is great to play through a period of growth into that concept.
As a DM, I have a similar issue. When I come up with a campaign, I typically have an end game in mind, and the vast majority of the scenarios I run are taking the group towards that end. I might have a few filler adventures now and then, but for the most part it's just full steam ahead. Once we get to that end, we're done. Could I come up with another campaign idea? Sure, but by then I'm probably wanting to play something other than D&D.
 

As a DM, I have a similar issue. When I come up with a campaign, I typically have an end game in mind, and the vast majority of the scenarios I run are taking the group towards that end. I might have a few filler adventures now and then, but for the most part it's just full steam ahead. Once we get to that end, we're done. Could I come up with another campaign idea? Sure, but by then I'm probably wanting to play something other than D&D.
You sound more organised than me, I'll often start a campaign with little to no idea as to where it will lead. The last one I ran (quite some time ago now) had events that would unfold that players could get into or ignore as they wished. First few adventures led into something that was more of a story arc with the big bad being some throwaway character that was there, in the background, then suddenly he ended up with a grand scheme to thwart. We did finish that arc and then stop playing, but it had more to do with life at the time, getting your gaming group together can sometimes be like herding cats. We were gonna play something on the anniversary of us getting together which got pushed out a week, then 3 then over a month. The reasons for not being able to play were fair, so no complaints there, but sort of lost interest in trying.
 

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. I guess the basic answer for me is good players who want to play the game, and are interested in the world at large.

How you answered was great; mainly, was curious to see if there were any factors beyond the game, that that you felt constructively helped with ensuring the different campaigns went on for as long as it did.
 

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