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Message: <blockquote data-quote="boschdevil" data-source="post: 857511" data-attributes="member: 10221">Plane Sailing, I'd agreed with everything you said except the above for the following reason:1)  Basic average of hit points, by average the 1st edition ranger had the following average hit points per level when compared to the fighter (I did adjust to denote a negative when a ranger had more hit points than a fighter):<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">AD&D hp avg (1d10 v. 2d8 starting dice) lvl ----- Ftr ----- Rgr ----- difference 1 ------ 5.5 ----- 9.0 ----- -3.5 2 ------11.0 ----13.5----- -2.5 3 ------16.5 ----18.0----- -1.5 4 ------22.0 ----22.5----- -0.5 5 ------27.5 ----27.0-----   0.5 6 ------33.0 ----31.5-----   1.5 7 ------38.5 ----36.0-----   2.5 8 ------44.0 ----40.5-----   3.5 9 ------49.5 ----45.0-----   4.5 10 -----(+3) ----49.5 ----   3.0 11 -----(+3) ----(+2) ----  (+1)</li> </ul>2)  Next, let's compare apples to apples.  I will use the 3rd edition rules for point buy (pg 20 of DMG) to compare abilities for a typical charactr of each class.  Remember that a 1st edition ranger had minimum ability requirements of a 13 for strength, a 13 for intelligence, a 14 for wisdom, and a 14 for constitution to be able to qualify for the race.  So, we shall start our Ranger character with a 13 Strength, 13 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, 10 dexterity (average score - I'll keep this ability the same between ranger versus fighter character comparison), 14 constitution, and a 10 charisma (will do the same as what was done for dexterity).  Ok, that is  point buy of 26.  Now, remember in 1st edition that a fighter only had minimum requirements of 9 for strength and 7 for constitution.  I'll keep my dexterity and charisma score the same as the ranger: a 10 each.  Next, since I do not have requirements for intelligence and wisdom, I will leave my abilities at the base of 8 each.  This leaves me a remaining 22 point for point buy.  Thus, I will make my constitution an 18 and the strength a 14.  Thus, when compared with the ranger, apples to apples, the fighter will get 4 additional hit points per level since a 14 constitution did not give you any additional hit points and an 18 constitution gave you an additional 4 hit point per hit die.  This is the reason why the minimum ability scores for a ranger is a big equalizer for a fighter.  Thus, factoring this into the hit point chart, the chart becomes:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">AD&D hp avg with equivalent abilities (1d10 v. 2d8 starting dice) lvl ----- Ftr ----- Rgr ----- difference 1  ----- 9.5 ----- 9.0 ----- 0.5 2  -----19.0 ----13.5 ---- 5.5 3  -----28.5 ----18.0 ----10.5 4  -----38.0 ----22.5 ----15.5 5  -----47.5 ----27.0 ----20.5 6  -----57.0 ----31.5 ----25.5 7  -----66.5 ----36.0 ----30.5 8  -----76.0 ----40.5 ----35.5 9  -----85.5 ----45.0 ----40.5 10-----(+7) ----49.5 -----45.5 11-----(+7) ----(+2) -----(+5)</li> </ul>So, the when compared to even abilities, the fighter average hit points leave the ranger for 1st edition, and at no time does the ranger have more hit points than the fighter.  And I didn't even factor in the lower experience points to level factor for the fighter.</blockquote>

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