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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Winterthorn" data-source="post: 871360" data-attributes="member: 1702">I've been reading through a good part of this thread, and what strikes me the most is how this class seems to proke so much debate about what a ranger is supposed to be. Some would like it to be an updated version of the 1E ranger, others wish it to evolve into its own, and a few like it as is (3E)...There is an absence of unity... We all seem to accept what a Fighter, Rogue, Cleric and Wizard should be. We all seem to have a good idea about what to expect from the musical Bard--even if the 3E execution was a little "flat" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />, and the Druid, Barbarian, Monk and Paladin seem to fit to most expectations as well...Sorcerer? Well we're all still "scratching our heads" over this one just because it's relatively new and it has "thrown a few curves" in the game... Some like it, some don't, I'm rather neutral about it...But the Ranger, do we really know what we want for this class? I think the Ranger inspires something in many ppl perhaps because the concept touches upon some primal yearning in our modern culture--does that make sense? Are we arguing about the definition of the Ranger because there's some instrinsic romantic ideal inspired by a "wilderness warrior" that no one can agree upon? Or is the debate more a consequence of the checkered history behind this class' mechanics since the early days of TSR? (I read Plane Sailing's history post--very enlightening I must say! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )Why are we fussing so much? <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />My response to the d8 HD for Rangers: I always felt that the Ranger should be instrinsically better at ranged sniping than the fighter--particularly with bows--while the fighter should be better than the Ranger in melee. A sniper in woodland cover doesn't really need a d10 for HD IMO. If the 3.5 Ranger keeps his good BAB, drops the virtual feats for a few real ones, has good wilderness skills, then I think things will start to come together... I could do without spells, especially those spells that alter the physical qualities of plants and animals--that should remain the exclusive privilege of Druids, Nature Clerics, Shamans, and the occasional arcane caster. Since this is D&D, I guess the spells will stay--I hope they are changed to make more sense--but that's just me. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I guess when I think of Ranger, I think of Robin Hood's men more than any other example: good with staves, bows, and light swordsmanship, with goodwill and wily outdoor skills and tricks...I think I'd rather the 3.5 Ranger be rebuilt from the ground up rather than just tweaked--I think more ppl will be happy with a complete overhaul than half-measures and tweaks...I'm not going to worry too much--if I don't like what WotC's done, I'll make corrections as I do for many things to suit my tastes as a DM. But I certainly empathize with the "feel" ppl are searching for, albeit tough for everyone to agree! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />-W.PS: Why there's no Intuit Weather skill in the game, beats me; this would be a good skill for Druids, Witches and Shamans (if you use these supplemental d20 classes), and of course Rangers! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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