D&D 4E Confirming the 4e Math, Stage 1: Iconics

[Stalker0]

For a while, the boards have been debating the 4e math. I have made the contention many times that you cannot explore the high levels mathematically without a heavy investigation into the interact of powers and effects at those levels. Well...its time to do that. To get started, I am creating an "iconic" party of 1 defender, controller, striker, and leader.

I have decided to use 21st level as a good basis. I am only using the core 4 books (PH1, DMG, MM, Adventurer's Vault-yes I consider it a core book) as this represents many of the default assumptions that went into the system.

My goal is to personify each of the roles in a way that is fairly optimized, but also makes sense to play. I have created the 4 using the character builder, and before I do a detailed analysis, I submit them to the boards for feedback.

The goal is NOT to twink these iconics, the goal is to see if they carry a set of powers, feats, items, and abilities that tend to fit their desired role well. I am not looking for big changes to these characters, mainly tweaks here and there unless I have selected something that absolutely makes no sense.

A few notes: For equipment I went with 1 22nd level item, 1 21st, and 1 20th, with 125,000 gp (this is the standard money for 21st level). I chose a brutal scoundrel rogue as I feel that fits the striker role better. I chose an elf for this role, because elves are badass For the wizard, I gave him a +1 AC bump because the character builder wouldn't let me put the staff in one hand...which from what I understand is allowed now by the rules. Finally, for the cleric and wizard I didn't record their rituals because it won't affect the analysis, but I took out a chunk of their gold which I assumed would be spent on items.

Without further ado:

Iconic Defender

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Iconic Fighter, level 21
Dragonborn, Fighter, Swordmaster, Demigod
Fighter Talents: One-handed Weapon Talent
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Strength
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Dexterity

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 27, Con 12, Dex 24, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 15.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 17, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11.


AC: 39 Fort: 35 Reflex: 34 Will: 28
HP: 172 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 46

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate, Streetwise, Athletics.

FEATS
1: Shield Push
2: Enlarged Dragon Breath
4: Toughness
6: Weapon Proficiency (Bastard sword)
8: Weapon Focus (Heavy Blade)
10: Blade Opportunist
11: Blood Thirst (retrained to Epic Resurgence at Level 21)
12: Devastating Critical
14: Heavy Blade Opportunity
16: Shield Specialization
18: Armor Specialization (Scale)
20: Iron Will
21: Heavy Blade Mastery

POWERS
1, At-Will: Tide of Iron
1, At-Will: Cleave
1, Encounter: Passing Attack
1, Daily: Comeback Strike
2, Utility: Boundless Endurance
3, Encounter: Sweeping Blow
5, Daily: Rain of Steel
6, Utility: Unbreakable
7, Encounter: Come and Get It
9, Daily: Thicket of Blades
10, Utility: Stalwart Guard
13, Encounter: Storm of Blows (replaces Passing Attack)
15, Daily: Unyielding Avalanche (replaces Comeback Strike)
16, Utility: Interposing Shield
17, Encounter: Harrying Assault (replaces Storm of Blows)
19, Daily: Strike of the Watchful Guard (replaces Thicket of Blades)

ITEMS
Retribution Bastard sword +5, Summoned Nagascale Armor +5, Brooch of Vitality +4, Iron Armbands of Power (paragon tier), Belt of Vigor (paragon tier), Solitaire (Citrine) (paragon tier), Helm of Battle (heroic tier), Assault Boots (paragon tier), War Ring (paragon tier), Ricochet Shield Heavy Shield (paragon tier)
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======


Iconic Striker
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Iconic Rogue, level 21
Elf, Rogue, Daggermaster, Deadly Trickster
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 22, Con 12, Dex 25, Int 10, Wis 15, Cha 12.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 17, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10.


AC: 36 Fort: 30 Reflex: 35 Will: 26
HP: 124 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 31

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth, Thievery, Perception, Insight, Acrobatics, Athletics, Nature.

FEATS
1: Elven Precision
2: Backstabber
4: Surprise Knockdown
6: Improved Initiative
8: Nimble Blade
10: Weapon Focus (Light Blade)
11: Danger Sense
12: Devastating Critical
14: Two-Weapon Fighting
16: Warrior of the Wild
18: Two-Weapon Defense
20: Agile Athlete
21: Triumphant Attack

POWERS
1, At-Will: Riposte Strike
1, At-Will: Piercing Strike
1, Encounter: Torturous Strike
1, Daily: Trick Strike
2, Utility: Fleeting Ghost
3, Encounter: Topple Over
5, Daily: Deep Cut
6, Utility: Chameleon
7, Encounter: Imperiling Strike
9, Daily: Knockout
10, Utility: Shadow Stride
13, Encounter: Stunning Strike (replaces Torturous Strike)
15, Daily: Slaying Strike (replaces Trick Strike)
16, Utility: Leaping Dodge
17, Encounter: Dragon Tail Strike (replaces Topple Over)
19, Daily: Flying Foe (replaces Deep Cut)

ITEMS
Vicious Dagger +5, Summoned Anathema Armor +5, Torc of Power Preservation +4, Flaying Gloves (paragon tier), Phantom Chaussures (paragon tier), Survivor's Belt (paragon tier), Vengeful Dagger +2
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======


Iconic Leader

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Iconic Cleric, level 21
Dwarf, Cleric, Radiant Servant, Demigod
Build: Devoted Cleric
Pact Initiate: Pact Initiate (fey pact)
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Wisdom
Divine Spark: Divine Spark Charisma

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 13, Con 14, Dex 12, Int 10, Wis 28, Cha 22.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 11, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 8, Wis 18, Cha 14.


AC: 32 Fort: 27 Reflex: 28 Will: 38
HP: 141 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 37

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion, Heal, Diplomacy, Arcana, Bluff.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Improved Initiative
2: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
4: Dodge Giants
6: Toughness
8: Pact Initiate
10: Adept Power
11: Combat Anticipation
12: Devastating Critical (retrained to Epic Resurgence at Level 21)
14: Dwarven Durability
16: Lightning Reflexes
18: Uncanny Dodge
20: Fleet-Footed
21: Font of Radiance

POWERS
1, At-Will: Lance of Faith
1, At-Will: Sacred Flame
1, Encounter: Divine Glow
1, Daily: Beacon of Hope
2, Utility: Bless
3, Encounter: Daunting Light
5, Daily: Consecrated Ground
6, Utility: Bastion of Health
7, Encounter: Break the Spirit
9, Daily: Divine Power
10, Utility: Mass Cure Light Wounds
13, Encounter: Mantle of Glory (replaces Divine Glow)
15, Daily: Seal of Warding (replaces Beacon of Hope)
16, Utility: Hallowed Ground
17, Encounter: Thunderous Word (replaces Daunting Light)
19, Daily: Knight of Glory (retrained to Delusions of Loyalty at Adept Power) (replaces Consecrated Ground)

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Magic Holy Symbol +5, Amulet of Resolution +5, Exalted Crysteel Armor +4, Crown of Command (paragon tier)

RITUALS
Gentle Repose
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======



Iconic Controller

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======
Iconic Wizard, level 21
Human, Wizard, Spellstorm Mage, Archmage
Arcane Implement Mastery: Orb of Imposition

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 12, Int 26, Wis 20, Cha 13.

Starting Ability Scores
Str 8, Con 10, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 11.


AC: 35 Fort: 29 Reflex: 36 Will: 33
HP: 102 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 25

TRAINED SKILLS
Diplomacy, Arcana, History, Religion, Insight.

FEATS
1: Ritual Caster
1: Action Surge
1: Expanded Spellbook
2: Jack of All Trades
4: Armor Proficiency (Leather)
6: Human Perseverance
8: Improved Initiative
10: Burning Blizzard
11: Danger Sense
12: Resounding Thunder
14: Uncanny Dodge
16: Combat Anticipation
18: Great Fortitude
20: Toughness (retrained to Arcane Mastery at Level 21)
21: Epic Resurgence

POWERS
1, At-Will: Thunderwave
1, At-Will: Scorching Burst
1, At-Will: Ray of Frost
1, Encounter: Burning Hands
1, Daily: Flaming Sphere
Spellbook: Freezing Cloud
Spellbook: Sleep
2, Utility: Shield
Spellbook: Feather Fall
3, Encounter: Color Spray
5, Daily: Bigby's Icy Grasp
Spellbook: Web
Spellbook: Stinking Cloud
6, Utility: Invisibility
Spellbook: Dispel Magic
7, Encounter: Winter's Wrath
9, Daily: Wall of Fire
Spellbook: Mordenkainen's Sword
Spellbook: Ice Storm
10, Utility: Blur
Spellbook: Resistance
13, Encounter: Prismatic Burst (replaces Burning Hands)
15, Daily: Bigby's Grasping Hands (replaces Bigby's Icy Grasp)
Spellbook: Prismatic Beams
Spellbook: Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
16, Utility: Fly
Spellbook: Displacement
17, Encounter: Ice Tomb (replaces Color Spray)
19, Daily: Evard's Black Tentacles (replaces Wall of Fire)
Spellbook: Acid Wave
Spellbook: Cloudkill

ITEMS
Spellbook, Orb of Impenetrable Escape +5, Fireflower Pendant +5, Irrefutable Snakeskin Armor +4, Headband of Insight (paragon tier), Magic Staff +1
====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder ======

 

[GMforPowergamers]

ok, first I love this idea...infact I wish I had thought of it. I want this to finaly be a way to show people how the math works. I also think you did a great job. I will however now pick some problems (Not to give you a hard time, but hopefuly to make this work)

1) two demi gods...people already say that it is eaither broken or mandatory...eaither way you might want to limit it alittle more...

2) Only 21st level...I think these iconics need to flow from the begining (or almost) I would say do 3 sets Lv 5, Lv 15, Lv25 (levels pulled out of my butt) so we can see how the leveling works...

3) Only 4 pcs...Since the defult assumtion is 5 pcs, maybe we should do 5...although then this opens up arguements over what role to double upo on...therefore maybe not...

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm not sure why you are including AV in your 'core' books?

I'm glad you don't want to twink the characters out, but I wonder if there is any particular reason that the wizard doesn't take "second implement" as one of his paragon feats - getting staff implement for +1 AC and another +1 to any defence once per encounter is a good deal - also he can then take weapon focus (staff) and be getting +3 on damage with all his powers used through the staff, which makes it a great basic implement for him.

I would have thought any Orb wizard would take Spell Focus as a matter of course when they can, as it stacks with his schtick.

I'd be tempted to give him a +2 Orb of Impenetrable Escape (costs peanuts) and a +5 mnemonic staff or +5 Reliable staff for most of his day to day casting.

Cheers

 

[MatthewJHanson]

I always like your analysis Stalker0, so I look forward to the results.

3) Only 4 pcs...Since the defult assumtion is 5 pcs, maybe we should do 5...although then this opens up arguements over what role to double upo on...therefore maybe not...

This was my intuition too. I'd make the 5th another striker because there are the most possibilities for those, and in my limited anecdotal experience is that it seems to be the most popular role.

 

[Klaus]

I'd suggest an archer ranger as a 5th character.

As for the Fighter, he certainly doesn't need that Dexterity. I'd switch it for Constitution.

 

[WarlockLord]

Spellstorm Mage? Why not Blood Mage for the Wizard?

 

[Truename]

This was my intuition too. I'd make the 5th another striker because there are the most possibilities for those, and in my limited anecdotal experience is that it seems to be the most popular role.

Thirded. Looking forward to this!

 

[Stalker0]

I'm not sure why you are including AV in your 'core' books?

I'm glad you don't want to twink the characters out, but I wonder if there is any particular reason that the wizard doesn't take "second implement" as one of his paragon feats - getting staff implement for +1 AC and another +1 to any defence once per encounter is a good deal - also he can then take weapon focus (staff) and be getting +3 on damage with all his powers used through the staff, which makes it a great basic implement for him.

I would have thought any Orb wizard would take Spell Focus as a matter of course when they can, as it stacks with his schtick.

I'd be tempted to give him a +2 Orb of Impenetrable Escape (costs peanuts) and a +5 mnemonic staff or +5 Reliable staff for most of his day to day casting.

Cheers

Hmm, I actually did take second implement (I even had to adjust the AC calculations to get it to work wtih the character builder) so not sure what happened to that, but I'll fix it. Also intended to take spell focus...well that's why I posted them in the first place to get people's feedback

 

[Stalker0]

3) Only 4 pcs...Since the defult assumtion is 5 pcs, maybe we should do 5...although then this opens up arguements over what role to double upo on...therefore maybe not...

This was the exact reason I didn't do 5. The rules assume 1 of each role, but with a 5 person group you will have 2 of one role, and that will effect how things go. The goal is to see how the power synergies of the 4 roles work at beating a combat, then we can adjust assumptions based on an additional copy of a role.

1) two demi gods...people already say that it is eaither broken or mandatory...eaither way you might want to limit it alittle more...

2) Only 21st level...I think these iconics need to flow from the begining (or almost) I would say do 3 sets Lv 5, Lv 15, Lv25 (levels pulled out of my butt) so we can see how the leveling works...

I chose demigods because that's the only real epic destiny offered most classes unless you go with the "multiclass" epic destiny.

The analysis can be done at many levels, 21st is the first level I wanted to look at. Of course the iconics can be adjusted for higher or lower levels, but I had to start somewhere and since high levels is the most talked about as far as "broken" math, its the place I wanted to start.

Spellstorm Mage? Why not Blood Mage for the Wizard?

I liked the feel of the spellstorm mage but I'm definitely open to it. Basically, for each, which paragon path exemplies the role the most? Which of the wizard paragon paths is the most "controllery".

 

[mach1.9pants]

As for the Fighter, he certainly doesn't need that Dexterity. I'd switch it for Constitution.

I would like to know why you have gone for DEX as well, a waste with heavy armour.. mostly. But I guess you have a reason.

If you have a google account could you upload them here so we can play/look at them with the CB?