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Confirming the 4e Math, Stage 1: Iconics
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<blockquote data-quote="Pickles JG" data-source="post: 4763378" data-attributes="member: 61501"><p>I did this same exercise last June & found the following as reported in the moribund Kommitatus D&D forum.</p><p> </p><p>(Follows a discussion of how the PC maths lags the monsters.)</p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">“Anyhow with this in mind I made up some 21 level characters & tried them against some level 21 encounters from the MM. I asolutely trashed a Dark Naga plus 3 Mummy Lords & then whalloped some Ice Archons & Fire monsters too. I used one AP & 2 daily powers in total & 1-2 healing surges per character. It seems at that level that PC can have a good time of it. I will try a couple more if I can generate the enthusiasm - it's a bit of a chore as you can imagine. </span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Level 21 is a bit of a peak too - all the at wills, weapon focus & striker bonuses get a boost in damage & improved crit was taken by all who could. I think level 20 characters would have had it a lot tougher. I may also have been favouring the PCs tactically but there were a lot of things to think about.</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">I really cannot see how to take down a dragon though unless it wants to be taken down. AC 40 with +25 attack is actually in clobbering distance after lots of team buffing (dailies) & stunning/immobilizing to stop it doing much but its mobility when it does get un mezzed makes it a bit problematic. (That's the level 22 red one BTW).</span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white"></span></span></span></p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Anyway there are still another 9 points of monster improvements & only 7 guaranteed PC boosts so it will get tougher at the top (probably), but it does seem to work pretty well at level 21 so far.”</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: white">Of course I then thought level 21 encounters were an appropriate challenge for a level 21 party. I would use 22 23 24 now. I did try a couple more (one with devils IIRC) but they were very easy. I used 5 PCs - as I remember Dwarf Iron Vanguard Fighter, Longtooth Angelic Avenger Battle Cleric (High Wis ofc), ?Wizard (Eladrin?) - cleric Crit giving PP, Brutal Human Rapier Rogue, Hybrid Elf Ranger. Lots of demigods given the lack of choice. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #ffffff">Re the current, more thorough, investigation. I would suggest using level 20 as I mention above the PCs are a lot weaker than level 21 but not knocking onto the final endgame. </span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #ffffff">I think the party is unbalanced in that it has only 2 melee characters & 2 squishies. I would prefer a battle cleric (more iconic IMO<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" />) or a 5th PC - Hybrid or Melee Ranger. In my experience the melee/range split seems to be more important than the role split. Also Strikers are the most common type in play (IME) & in number of types available, though the latter may inform the former.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #ffffff">The cash issue is a bit more pronounced at 21 level as there is quite a jump from level 20 to 21 item values so the amount of hard cash you get is significantly behind what you would get at 1 level higher.</span></span></span></p><p> </p><p><span style="color: black"><span style="font-family: 'Arial'"><span style="color: #ffffff">Anyway I look forward to your experiences. </span></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Pickles JG, post: 4763378, member: 61501"] I did this same exercise last June & found the following as reported in the moribund Kommitatus D&D forum. [COLOR=white][/COLOR] (Follows a discussion of how the PC maths lags the monsters.) [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]“Anyhow with this in mind I made up some 21 level characters & tried them against some level 21 encounters from the MM. I asolutely trashed a Dark Naga plus 3 Mummy Lords & then whalloped some Ice Archons & Fire monsters too. I used one AP & 2 daily powers in total & 1-2 healing surges per character. It seems at that level that PC can have a good time of it. I will try a couple more if I can generate the enthusiasm - it's a bit of a chore as you can imagine. Level 21 is a bit of a peak too - all the at wills, weapon focus & striker bonuses get a boost in damage & improved crit was taken by all who could. I think level 20 characters would have had it a lot tougher. I may also have been favouring the PCs tactically but there were a lot of things to think about. I really cannot see how to take down a dragon though unless it wants to be taken down. AC 40 with +25 attack is actually in clobbering distance after lots of team buffing (dailies) & stunning/immobilizing to stop it doing much but its mobility when it does get un mezzed makes it a bit problematic. (That's the level 22 red one BTW). Anyway there are still another 9 points of monster improvements & only 7 guaranteed PC boosts so it will get tougher at the top (probably), but it does seem to work pretty well at level 21 so far.”[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=white][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=white]Of course I then thought level 21 encounters were an appropriate challenge for a level 21 party. I would use 22 23 24 now. I did try a couple more (one with devils IIRC) but they were very easy. I used 5 PCs - as I remember Dwarf Iron Vanguard Fighter, Longtooth Angelic Avenger Battle Cleric (High Wis ofc), ?Wizard (Eladrin?) - cleric Crit giving PP, Brutal Human Rapier Rogue, Hybrid Elf Ranger. Lots of demigods given the lack of choice. [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff]Re the current, more thorough, investigation. I would suggest using level 20 as I mention above the PCs are a lot weaker than level 21 but not knocking onto the final endgame. [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff]I think the party is unbalanced in that it has only 2 melee characters & 2 squishies. I would prefer a battle cleric (more iconic IMO:)) or a 5th PC - Hybrid or Melee Ranger. In my experience the melee/range split seems to be more important than the role split. Also Strikers are the most common type in play (IME) & in number of types available, though the latter may inform the former.[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff]The cash issue is a bit more pronounced at 21 level as there is quite a jump from level 20 to 21 item values so the amount of hard cash you get is significantly behind what you would get at 1 level higher.[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=#ffffff]Anyway I look forward to your experiences. [/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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