Confusion about pdfs

[Miar]

I'm thinking about buying a number of pdf products at the moment.. but have some confusion about them.

My understanding is that buying a pdf you have the right to print it for personal use. This is a basic right to change the format of a bought product. If I buy a print product I could make a pdf for personal use as well. -let me know if I'm off here.. ok.. questions..

1. How easy has it been lately to get things printed at say Kinkos or the local copy shop? Do most publishers now include with your pdf something that says you have the right to print a copy?

2. Do people sell 2nd hand pdfs? Are pdfs watermarked and how would this all work?

3. Pdfs and print are often sold as 2 separate products. Sometimes companies like Pazio sell like this however they might also sell something like Pathfinder in print with a free pdf. Is this really a print product with a free backup pdf copy or is it one product with 2 parts or two different products? In the first case if you sold the print copy to someone the pdf would also go with it. In the 2nd half the product could be sold and the other half kept and in the 3rd they could of course be dealt with separately (2 and 3 amount to the same thing pretty much).

4. If you have the right to make a pdf copy for personal use out of your print it seems you would also have the right to get a pdf copy from someone else as long as you have the print. My understanding of this is from other media say music.. or computer games.. or at least I've seen this argument. Is it correct? If so why would there be any value in say buying Wizards 4th ed pdfs if one person could make one and hand it off to others legally if they already have a print copy. If Wizards adds value to the pdf would it then be considered 2 products or 1 product with 2 pieces which could be sold separately. (this question is not really about 4th ed it's just that this is an easy example).


Personally I'm not interested in selling whatever pdfs I got but I would like to further my understanding or at least see if my understanding of the situation is accurate at all. This seems like nightmare for publishers especially if they are all defining things differently. - never mind selling them separately and togeather or one with the other free.

 

[Aus_Snow]

1. How easy has it been lately to get things printed at say Kinkos or the local copy shop? Do most publishers now include with your pdf something that says you have the right to print a copy?

I have had problems with that, but only at one place. I have never been back there, having found a place that doesn't do their apparent best to p*ss me off. Publishers generally don't give you anything like that, but I'm sure some would be quite willing to do so. However, I recommend just going somewhere they (employees) don't hassle you in this way. Yeah, duh.

2. Do people sell 2nd hand pdfs? Are pdfs watermarked and how would this all work?

Not that I am aware of, some are, and I can't see it working at all, respectively.

3. Pdfs and print are often sold as 2 separate products. Sometimes companies like Pazio sell like this however they might also sell something like Pathfinder in print with a free pdf. Is this really a print product with a free backup pdf copy or is it one product with 2 parts or two different products? In the first case if you sold the print copy to someone the pdf would also go with it. In the 2nd half the product could be sold and the other half kept and in the 3rd they could of course be dealt with separately (2 and 3 amount to the same thing pretty much).

If you buy or are granted a 'commercial' PDF, I think a good rule of thumb would be: don't try to sell it on, don't 'share' it, and don't in any way transfer it to anyone else's computer or storage device.

4. If you have the right to make a pdf copy for personal use out of your print it seems you would also have the right to get a pdf copy from someone else as long as you have the print. My understanding of this is from other media say music.. or computer games.. or at least I've seen this argument. Is it correct? If so why would there be any value in say buying Wizards 4th ed pdfs if one person could make one and hand it off to others legally if they already have a print copy. If Wizards adds value to the pdf would it then be considered 2 products or 1 product with 2 pieces which could be sold separately. (this question is not really about 4th ed it's just that this is an easy example).

No, it isn't. AFAIK, that is.

Regarding 4e PDFs, there will be 'a nominal fee' (and some kind of ID, essentially) required to obtain the PDF, using the code from the hard copy you have already purchased. IOW, they will not be 'free'.

 

[Miar]

If you buy or are granted a 'commercial' PDF, I think a good rule of thumb would be: don't try to sell it on, don't 'share' it, and don't in any way transfer it to anyone else's computer or storage device.

I think this needs more thought than just a no I wouldn't try that. Say we get 10 years down the road and ebooks take off. Many publishers drop the print. Do we lose the rights to a product that we bought does everything become a rental? If I die does my wife now not get my pdfs? It may not be an issue now but I think things like this need to be considered, thought about and worked out now. If we all just shrug it off I think we may be just creating a bigger problem as we get further down the road. A bought pdf product is not a rental and should not be thought of that way.

 

[Miar]

No, it isn't. AFAIK, that is.

Regarding 4e PDFs, there will be 'a nominal fee' (and some kind of ID, essentially) required to obtain the PDF, using the code from the hard copy you have already purchased. IOW, they will not be 'free'.

Most the of arguments I have seen for this involve the preservation of media. Hard copies age if something can not be reprinted due to copyright and I have a legit copy and I want to back it up so all copies of it don't disappear as original hard copies die as far as I know I have the right. And of course the right to use my copy if I need/want to. Here I would like to see something a bit more firm than AFAIK. Which of course is why I'm asking .

On the nominal fee I think there was something recently that said between 1 and 2$, however fee or no does not address the issue of right to make a electronic copy privately or have another make one for you if you already have a hard copy.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Here I would like to see something a bit more firm than AFAIK. Which of course is why I'm asking .

Sure, I understand that. Fact is, I'm not totally sure, and was simply being upfront about that. I've already read something (via Google) that contradicts my instincts, as they were previously expressed. And that something was written by someone in the RPG PDF industry, who I happen to respect. So, I dunno.

http://www.rpgnow.com/faq.php

That might help a little bit, but yes, I know it doesn't answer all your questions.

Where are those lawyers around here when you do want them.

 

[Cage-Rattler]

Well, lawyer-in-training here. :b Unfortunately, I don't plan on specializing in copywrite law, but I will address this part:

My understanding of this is from other media say music.. or computer games.. or at least I've seen this argument. Is it correct?]

Actually, unless the you have a written statement from a video-game publisher or recording artist, it's still illegal to distribute copies to your families and friends even if you're doing so for free. You'll find that most music CDs (here in the US) have an FBI warning stating that "Unauthorizing Copying is punishable under federal law", and most video game EULAs threaten legal action if copies are made and distributed.

 

[amethal]

My War of the Burning Sky subscription includes a black and white "printer friendly" version in with the full colour PDF.

I think PDF publishers assume that you might want to print out their products.

 

[Miar]

Well, lawyer-in-training here. :b Unfortunately, I don't plan on specializing in copywrite law, but I will address this part:


Actually, unless the you have a written statement from a video-game publisher or recording artist, it's still illegal to distribute copies to your families and friends even if you're doing so for free. You'll find that most music CDs (here in the US) have an FBI warning stating that "Unauthorizing Copying is punishable under federal law", and most video game EULAs threaten legal action if copies are made and distributed.

Hmm.. think you misread. I was talking not about giving copies to other people in the sense I think you mean. Handing out random copies is of course illegal. I was saying that if you had a bought a copy my understanding that having a backup copy was not illegal and that this was true whether you or someone else made this copy. I know I have seen business (I believe even US based) that you could pay to make back up copies for you (of music). If would then follow through that if both you and someone you knew had bought a copy and they had scanned it for a backup then you getting a backup copy as well from them was not illegal.

 

[Miar]

I know I have seen business (I believe even US based) that you could pay to make back up copies for you (of music).

Here's a place in the UK that does that http://www.cd-mp3.co.uk/

 

[jaerdaph]

And of course the right to use my copy if I need/want to. Here I would like to see something a bit more firm than AFAIK. Which of course is why I'm asking .

Well, you should probably be consulting an intellectual property lawyer then instead of asking on a message board where everyone and their brother will have an opinion, correct or not.

Speaking of which this subject, especially with regard to PDF publishing, has been covered ad nauseum here at EN World before. Perhaps you should do a search of the forums and find an existing thread and read what others have had to say on the subject already. Those threads included input and insight from lawyers and publishers as well.