D&D 5E (2014) Consequences of Failure

[Ovinomancer]

See the real problem is this near constant drone from you and others here that I'm either disingenuous or an idiot. That's the real issue in our exchanges.

I don't think you're an idiot.

 

[FrogReaver]

I don't think you're an idiot.

Just disingenuous?

 

[5ekyu]

I know this isn't the case but it's kind of like some believe players that ask the gm for a roll are trying to railroad him into giving them a roll when what's actually happening is the player expects that he is going to be given a roll in the situation due to past experiences and is just trying to be helpful and speed the game along

Well, there was that rant blog post from dome guy that keeps getting referenced and one of its presumptions was that one of the problem from players calling for checks was just this - players trying to use their best rolls skills ehen other stuff was appropriate and gms unable to handle it - iirc.

At our table if "I use insifht" is not clear from context (honestly cannot recall last time it wasnt) I just ask.

If a player says "does my arcana trll me anything" while looking st a picture of mage dueling, I dont fret over hoe I just got bullied cuz history was better - I just give him the info arcana would give.

No crisis. No raging GM.

 

[Charlaquin]

I see no meaningful distinction between such statements. Surely ya'll always goal and approach people can see why this is an issue for us not always goal and approach people?

The former references a codified set of rules that describes in detail both an both in-fiction activity on the part of the character, and the appropriate mechanics the DM is meant to employ to resolve the outcome of said activity. The latter is a vague statement of intent to “read others” with no clear indication of in-fiction activity. Surely you can see why us “always goal and approach people” see these things as meaningfully different.

 

[FrogReaver]

You can't actually tell a difference between a specific, well-codified action and a generic statement of vague action?

Of course that's a difference, it is not something I view as a meaningful difference in relation to GAA.

I've been told many times that shorthand is out of the question. That an approach such as drawing upon general life experiences isn't good enough. So yes, it is important just how you are moving your arms, just how you handle the bat guano. It may not be important this time, but it will be important sometime. Maybe the winds blowing hard enough to blow it off your hand if you just lay it there. Maybe your in such a cramped space that you can't wave your arms out wide like you normally do. Etc.

How you try to cast fireball seems to me to be every bit as ambiguous as using past experiences to read someones trustworthiness

 

[FrogReaver]

The former references a codified set of rules that describes in detail both an both in-fiction activity on the part of the character, and the appropriate mechanics the DM is meant to employ to resolve the outcome of said activity. The latter is a vague statement of intent to “read others” with no clear indication of in-fiction activity. Surely you can see why us “always goal and approach people” see these things as meaningfully different.

Codified rules don't make the action non-ambiguous. It simply makes certain elements of the action non-ambiguous. No written rule for an RPG can encompass every situation.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think the term “goal and approach” as a description of the set of techniques I, Ovinomancer, and others employ is causing undue miscommunication. And I accept a large part of the responsibility for coining it. Let me try to clear some things up.

Those of us who use these techniques strive to at all times follow the flow of play described in the beginning part of the PHB, wherein the DM first describes the environment, then the players describe what they want to do, then the DM determines the results (possibly calling for a die roll to help in this determination), and then describes the results. I don’t think this particular part of what we do is especially controversial. I think pretty much everyone who runs 5e does this, to a certain extent. There are two major places where I think the two sides differ: how we interpret “a player describes what they want to do” and the methods we use for determining the results of said description. I think where things are getting muddled is in the conflation of these two points.

When those of us on my side of this debate read “the player describes what they want to do,” our interpretation is that this need be a description of the character’s activity in the fiction. “I cast fireball” is a description of the character’s activity in the fiction; the fireball spell exists in the world of the fiction, and casting it is understood to be an activity that involves particular magic words, gestures, and uses of particular materials to produce a particular result. “I make an Insight check” is not a description of the character’s activity in the fiction.

Related to, but separate from this, we strive to eliminate the need for the DM to make assumptions about “what [the player] wants to do” in order to determine the result. In the case of spellcasting, this generally requires very little effort. The rules provide explicit instructions for what mechanics to employ to to resolve the particular effects produced by the particular activities understood to be performed by a character casting the spell. In the case of an attempt to recognize that an NPC is lying, it is more difficult to resolve the outcome without making assumptions about the character’s activity in the fiction. To do so, the DM needs to know specifically what activity the character is performing in the fiction. So, where specific resolution procedures are not provided by the rules, and the DM is expected to use their best judgment to decide which mechanics, if any, to employ, we ask that the players communicate both what they as a player want to achieve, and what their character is doing that they hope will result in the desired outcome, in order to make our determination of the results as easy and assumption-free as possible.

 

[Charlaquin]

Of course that's a difference, it is not something I view as a meaningful difference in relation to GAA.

I've been told many times that shorthand is out of the question. That an approach such as drawing upon general life experiences isn't good enough. So yes, it is important just how you are moving your arms, just how you handle the bat guano. It may not be important this time, but it will be important sometime. Maybe the winds blowing hard enough to blow it off your hand if you just lay it there. Maybe your in such a cramped space that you can't wave your arms out wide like you normally do. Etc.

How you try to cast fireball seems to me to be every bit as ambiguous as using past experiences to read someones trustworthiness

But the rules, which explicitly describe the appropriate way to resolve the casting of the fireball spell, don’t say anything about the wind, or the arm space required. If you have a hand free, are able to speak, and have either bat guano and sulphur or an appropriate spellcasting focus available at hand, you are able to perform the necessary actions to result in the effects described by the fireball spell. The rules tell us as much.

 

[FrogReaver]

But the rules, which explicitly describe the appropriate way to resolve the casting of the fireball spell, don’t say anything about the wind, or the arm space required. If you have a hand free, are able to speak, and have either bat guano and sulphur or an appropriate spellcasting focus available at hand, you are able to perform the necessary actions to result in the effects described by the fireball spell. The rules tell us as much.

This is an RPG. Surely you aren't arguing that environmental factors can't impact the mundane things your character tries to do?

 

[Charlaquin]

This is an RPG. Surely you aren't arguing that environmental factors can't impact the mundane things your character tries to do?

Surely you aren’t arguing that’s the case with the Insight skill?