RangerWickett
Legend
Someone proposed an interesting idea in the Skills that Suck thread, and I'm wondering about expanding on it. This is going to tear the d20 system down and rebuild it, as a thought experiment.
Brainstorming: I brainstormed for three hours while I typed this post. If you want to see the results, skip down to the row of red asterisks.
In sort of a mixing between D&D rules and d20 Modern classes, let's have six saving throws:
Physical (Str) - Making physical attacks, movement speed.
Reflex (Dex) - Avoiding physical attacks, movement agility, finesse, avoiding damage from area attacks.
Fortitude (Con) - Avoiding damage from bodily attacks, surviving stuff.
Mental (Int) - Figuring things out, manipulating devices, learning things, making area attacks.
Will (Wis) - Avoiding damage from mental attacks, sensing motives and emotions, noticing things.
Spiritual (Cha) - Making mental attacks, influencing others.
So, out of the six abilities, a few are related, a few are opposed, each on different axes.
Attacks
Making physical attacks - Str to do it, Dex to avoid it. This covers stuff like swinging swords.
Making mental or spiritual attacks - Cha to do it, Wis to avoid it. This covers spells like hold person or magic jar, and skills like Bluff.
Making area of effect attacks - Int to do it, Dex to avoid it. Think of artillery. A skilled artillerist is smart, not agile, so Int is important for aiming. This covers stuff like fireballs, machine gun sprays, and traps.
Surviving Things
Physical damage vs. Mental damage - Con vs. Wis. We could move to a Mutants & Masterminds-esque damage save, with Con letting you resist poison, heat, falling, suffocation; and Wisdom letting you resist brainwashing, torture, mind control. These apply for effects you cannot avoid, only endure.
Movement
Speed vs. Agility - Str vs. Dex
So, Strength is kinda like Charisma. Both are used just for attacks and force, but one is force of body, the other force of will.
Constitution is kinda like Wisdom. Both are used just for defense, but one defends you physically, the other defends you mentally. I suppose noticing your enemy sneaking or lying counts as defense.
Dexterity and Intelligence are kinda giving me troubles. Both can be used for attacks (aiming targeted attacks or aiming area attacks), and both can be used sorta for defense (dodging blows, and figuring out things). I almost wonder if I should switch them up a bit so that Dexterity only applies to defense, and Intelligence only applies to attacks, but it'd be awkward. I think I kinda like the fact that both are multifaceted -- the goal is to make sure neither is too strong. I do wonder if perhaps all physical attacks should be Str-based.
A bit of philosophy: In this system, Str and Cha should never be defensive, so Paladins shouldn't add Cha to saving throws. And Con and Wis should never be aggressive, so no such thing as Zen Archery. Or maybe this should just be usually never, so that the Paladin thing is extra special.
Skill System
If we go for a D20 Modern (or Grim Tales)-esque six class system, we have a division of talent. We could even go for a three class system, we have a division of focus.
6-Class: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, Charismatic
3-Class: Fighter, Expert, Mage
Either way, I'm thinking of having some saves progress automatically, and give you a certain amount of points at each level you can fiddle with to decide what you get better at.
Then you have skill points, which are spent on things that require more knowledge and less practice. For instance, you can learn Knowledge skills, or Disable Device, or Spellcraft, but to get better at balancing, jumping, concentrating, or bluffing, you have to practice. Practice is represented by leveling up, knowledge is represented by skill points. You get X skill points per level, but you can spend no more than 3 skill points on any given skill. This is because you have your basic talent (represented by the save), and the skill just lets you augment your talent with knowledge. Maybe at higher levels the maximum you can spend increases by 1 or 2 points, but generally your bonus is defined by your Saving Throws.
**************************************** **************************************** **************************************** ****************************************
Results:
Ability Scores: There are six ability scores -- Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. Typical human scores range from 3 to 18, with the average being 10.
Ability scores typically don't improve by level, whereas talents do.
Strength (Str) - Provides a bonus to Attack checks.
Dexterity (Dex) - Provides a bonus to Movement saves.
Constitution (Con) - Provides a bonus to Fortitude saves.
Intelligence (Int) – Provides a bonus to Mental checks, and determines how many skill points you get.
Wisdom (Wis) – Provides a bonus to Will saves.
Charisma (Cha) – Provides a bonus to Spirit checks.
Talents and Saves: There are three talents and three saves, one related to each ability score. Talents are used when attempting active actions, and saves are used to resist things.
Attack (Atk) - Strength-based. Determines whether your physical attacks succeed, and whether your attacks injure a foe.
Mental (Mnt) – Intelligence-based. Determines whether you hit with area of effect attacks, and sets the DC for certain checks (see skills, below).
Spirit (Spr) – Charisma-based. Determines whether your non-physical succeed, including most spells and more mundane trickery.
Movement (Mov) - Dexterity-based. Add 10 + your Reflex bonus to determine your Defense, the DC that must be beat to hit you in combat. For passive movement-based dangers, such as avoiding falling, dodging a trap, or swimming in rough water, make an actual Movement save.
Fortitude (Fort) – Constitution-based. Add 10 + your Fortitude bonus to determine the DC that must be beat to inflict an injury upon you. For passive damage, such as heat, falling, poison, and so on, make an actual Fortitude save.
Will (Will) – Wisdom-based. Add 10 + your Will bonus to determine the DC that must be beat to affect you by lying, deception, or magical effects that affect your soul or mind. For passive mind- or soul-based dangers, such as keeping vigil, make an actual Will save.
Improving Talents and Saves: At each level, you get three +1 basic bonuses that you can assign however you see fit among your talents and saves. You can even assign multiple to the same talent or same save. However, you cannot have a basic bonus to a talent or save that is higher than half your level +2.
Typically a highly focused character will have two at maximum, two at average, and two with no bonus. A 4th level berserker warrior might have +4 Atk and Fort, +2 Def and Will, and +0 Mnt and Spr. A 4th level sword-wielding mage might have +3 Atk, +3 Spr, +2 Mnt, +2 Def, +1 Will, and +1 Fort.
Skills: Each character gets 2 skill points per level, plus 1 per point of Intelligence bonus. There are many different skills, but you are limited to the number of skill points you can spend on each skill. You can spend no more than (your character level divided by 3, plus 2) on any given skill.
Attack skills – Melee (Str), Ranged (Dex).
Mental skills – Aim (Dex), Appraise (Int), Craft (various sub-skills) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (various sub-skills) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sneak (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Use Device (various sub-skills) (Int).
Spirit skills – Body Magic (Cha), Influence (Cha), Soul Magic (Cha).
Movement skills – Climb (special), Defense (Dex), Fly (special), Jump (Str), Run (special), Swim (special).
For most skill checks, add your skill bonus to the appropriate check or save, then add the associated ability score modifier. For Movement skills, use your Strength bonus when determining skill, or your Dexterity bonus when determining maneuverability. For Perception, normally you Take 10, and this is the DC that must be beat to use Sneak to avoid detection by you. However, you can make active Perception checks if you are aware of something and want to find it. In high-tech settings, Use Device (Computers) can be made as an opposed check when two users are trying to do opposing things in a computer system.
More to come. . . .
Brainstorming: I brainstormed for three hours while I typed this post. If you want to see the results, skip down to the row of red asterisks.
In sort of a mixing between D&D rules and d20 Modern classes, let's have six saving throws:
Physical (Str) - Making physical attacks, movement speed.
Reflex (Dex) - Avoiding physical attacks, movement agility, finesse, avoiding damage from area attacks.
Fortitude (Con) - Avoiding damage from bodily attacks, surviving stuff.
Mental (Int) - Figuring things out, manipulating devices, learning things, making area attacks.
Will (Wis) - Avoiding damage from mental attacks, sensing motives and emotions, noticing things.
Spiritual (Cha) - Making mental attacks, influencing others.
So, out of the six abilities, a few are related, a few are opposed, each on different axes.
Attacks
Making physical attacks - Str to do it, Dex to avoid it. This covers stuff like swinging swords.
Making mental or spiritual attacks - Cha to do it, Wis to avoid it. This covers spells like hold person or magic jar, and skills like Bluff.
Making area of effect attacks - Int to do it, Dex to avoid it. Think of artillery. A skilled artillerist is smart, not agile, so Int is important for aiming. This covers stuff like fireballs, machine gun sprays, and traps.
Surviving Things
Physical damage vs. Mental damage - Con vs. Wis. We could move to a Mutants & Masterminds-esque damage save, with Con letting you resist poison, heat, falling, suffocation; and Wisdom letting you resist brainwashing, torture, mind control. These apply for effects you cannot avoid, only endure.
Movement
Speed vs. Agility - Str vs. Dex
So, Strength is kinda like Charisma. Both are used just for attacks and force, but one is force of body, the other force of will.
Constitution is kinda like Wisdom. Both are used just for defense, but one defends you physically, the other defends you mentally. I suppose noticing your enemy sneaking or lying counts as defense.
Dexterity and Intelligence are kinda giving me troubles. Both can be used for attacks (aiming targeted attacks or aiming area attacks), and both can be used sorta for defense (dodging blows, and figuring out things). I almost wonder if I should switch them up a bit so that Dexterity only applies to defense, and Intelligence only applies to attacks, but it'd be awkward. I think I kinda like the fact that both are multifaceted -- the goal is to make sure neither is too strong. I do wonder if perhaps all physical attacks should be Str-based.
A bit of philosophy: In this system, Str and Cha should never be defensive, so Paladins shouldn't add Cha to saving throws. And Con and Wis should never be aggressive, so no such thing as Zen Archery. Or maybe this should just be usually never, so that the Paladin thing is extra special.
Skill System
If we go for a D20 Modern (or Grim Tales)-esque six class system, we have a division of talent. We could even go for a three class system, we have a division of focus.
6-Class: Strong, Fast, Tough, Smart, Dedicated, Charismatic
3-Class: Fighter, Expert, Mage
Either way, I'm thinking of having some saves progress automatically, and give you a certain amount of points at each level you can fiddle with to decide what you get better at.
Then you have skill points, which are spent on things that require more knowledge and less practice. For instance, you can learn Knowledge skills, or Disable Device, or Spellcraft, but to get better at balancing, jumping, concentrating, or bluffing, you have to practice. Practice is represented by leveling up, knowledge is represented by skill points. You get X skill points per level, but you can spend no more than 3 skill points on any given skill. This is because you have your basic talent (represented by the save), and the skill just lets you augment your talent with knowledge. Maybe at higher levels the maximum you can spend increases by 1 or 2 points, but generally your bonus is defined by your Saving Throws.
**************************************** **************************************** **************************************** ****************************************
Results:
Ability Scores: There are six ability scores -- Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma. Typical human scores range from 3 to 18, with the average being 10.
Ability scores typically don't improve by level, whereas talents do.
Strength (Str) - Provides a bonus to Attack checks.
Dexterity (Dex) - Provides a bonus to Movement saves.
Constitution (Con) - Provides a bonus to Fortitude saves.
Intelligence (Int) – Provides a bonus to Mental checks, and determines how many skill points you get.
Wisdom (Wis) – Provides a bonus to Will saves.
Charisma (Cha) – Provides a bonus to Spirit checks.
Talents and Saves: There are three talents and three saves, one related to each ability score. Talents are used when attempting active actions, and saves are used to resist things.
Attack (Atk) - Strength-based. Determines whether your physical attacks succeed, and whether your attacks injure a foe.
Mental (Mnt) – Intelligence-based. Determines whether you hit with area of effect attacks, and sets the DC for certain checks (see skills, below).
Spirit (Spr) – Charisma-based. Determines whether your non-physical succeed, including most spells and more mundane trickery.
Movement (Mov) - Dexterity-based. Add 10 + your Reflex bonus to determine your Defense, the DC that must be beat to hit you in combat. For passive movement-based dangers, such as avoiding falling, dodging a trap, or swimming in rough water, make an actual Movement save.
Fortitude (Fort) – Constitution-based. Add 10 + your Fortitude bonus to determine the DC that must be beat to inflict an injury upon you. For passive damage, such as heat, falling, poison, and so on, make an actual Fortitude save.
Will (Will) – Wisdom-based. Add 10 + your Will bonus to determine the DC that must be beat to affect you by lying, deception, or magical effects that affect your soul or mind. For passive mind- or soul-based dangers, such as keeping vigil, make an actual Will save.
Improving Talents and Saves: At each level, you get three +1 basic bonuses that you can assign however you see fit among your talents and saves. You can even assign multiple to the same talent or same save. However, you cannot have a basic bonus to a talent or save that is higher than half your level +2.
Typically a highly focused character will have two at maximum, two at average, and two with no bonus. A 4th level berserker warrior might have +4 Atk and Fort, +2 Def and Will, and +0 Mnt and Spr. A 4th level sword-wielding mage might have +3 Atk, +3 Spr, +2 Mnt, +2 Def, +1 Will, and +1 Fort.
Skills: Each character gets 2 skill points per level, plus 1 per point of Intelligence bonus. There are many different skills, but you are limited to the number of skill points you can spend on each skill. You can spend no more than (your character level divided by 3, plus 2) on any given skill.
Attack skills – Melee (Str), Ranged (Dex).
Mental skills – Aim (Dex), Appraise (Int), Craft (various sub-skills) (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (various sub-skills) (Int), Open Lock (Dex), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sneak (Dex), Spellcraft (Int), Use Device (various sub-skills) (Int).
Spirit skills – Body Magic (Cha), Influence (Cha), Soul Magic (Cha).
Movement skills – Climb (special), Defense (Dex), Fly (special), Jump (Str), Run (special), Swim (special).
For most skill checks, add your skill bonus to the appropriate check or save, then add the associated ability score modifier. For Movement skills, use your Strength bonus when determining skill, or your Dexterity bonus when determining maneuverability. For Perception, normally you Take 10, and this is the DC that must be beat to use Sneak to avoid detection by you. However, you can make active Perception checks if you are aware of something and want to find it. In high-tech settings, Use Device (Computers) can be made as an opposed check when two users are trying to do opposing things in a computer system.
More to come. . . .
