Constellation of Complications

[Ovinomancer]

I think we’re looking at the costs differently. The way I parse it, the stress cost is based on the opportunity in the flashback.


If I were earlier able to skulk a weapon into the room that lets me take the guy out (to use an example from the book), why wouldn’t that cost 1 stress? I wasn’t in a desperate position when I set that up, but I am now, and if my shot misses, I expect I’ll take a bunch of harm.

Yup, sure thing. This isn't directly solving the problem, but is more of a setup to help address the problem. You still have to deal with the desperate situation, but maybe now you have greater effect or scale or what-have-you. This can definitely turn a Desperate/Limited situation where the threat is coming at you and all you have is whatever is at hand to Desperate/Standard or even Desperate/Great, depending on how the setup works. This is 100% kosher. I was speaking to resolving the actual problem via flashback -- that's going to be constrained by how the problem gets established in the fiction. If it's hard to deal with now, it was hard to deal with then, or we wouldn't be here now. That kind of thing.

I was guessing at possible options based on your innuendo since I didn’t know the parameters of what kind of “charm” and “luck” they were in for. However, you’re also right. I had a bit on that in my post, but I took it out. The gist of it was I intentionally leave the fiction malleable to make sure I have tools I can use during the score. We had a session where we didn’t do that, and reflecting back on it, I think that’s why we didn’t use any flashbacks (so we had to solve the problem with detonators …).

That session was our stairs scenario. When one of our guys opened his mind to the Way, he took a Devil’s Bargain, and I suggested that someone noticed. The GM put a clock down that the Nightspeakers were coming. The clock ticked over, and I threw a detonator at the Nightspeaker that showed up. We were badly outclassed, but we rolled really well. I don’t recall our position, but he said it would have been bad if we hadn’t gotten lucky.

What we had done in the prior session is go talk to a bunch of people about the place we would be going. This locked down lore and knowledge about it as well as our limitations. Because most of our infiltration involved overcoming obstacles as we pushed further, it wouldn’t make sense for us to have put stuff there ahead of time for when we encountered a problem. This was problematic later when we encountered an old computer we didn’t know how to use, but since we established what we did during our research, we couldn’t flashback to get the requisite knowledge.

Yup, this is exactly what I'm talking about.

I see. You’re using “went off plan” to mean that you’ve established in the fiction that no other planning was done. Does that exclude “I lied. I actually did do something and didn’t tell you.”?


Not necessarily. My character was conceptualized as a cross between Captain Sternn and Zapp Brannigan (unethical and lascivious). It wouldn’t be out of character for him to get the code ahead of time and use the mission (which was during a party) to screw around (rather literally).

Interesting. No, it doesn't preclude it, but then we're back to talking about the costs of this -- if everyone in your crew thinks this is hard enough for a complicated plan, then the flashback has to also be a complicated plan and so costly. Half a score's worth of plan (well, the idea there was a plan) seems really costly to me. I see where you're coming from, but remember that there's a lot of stuff happening "off camera" that is still part of the fiction -- we're just discovering it now. Part of that is the shared understanding that everyone was in on the planning. So, a lot of "planning" went into your character's part and goal at some point. We don't bother with this on stage, but this, to me, adds to the complexity and challenge of a flashback that says you lied to everyone and had a different plan set up. I absolutely see the motivation, though. At least tell me you got XP for vice, right?

Our GM really likes the Mr Johnson format. Most of our scores have had us stealing something or delivering something for someone. Some have gone down loudly while others have gone more quietly. Only one of them had a hard requirement that we couldn’t be discovered at all. That one was a lot of fun (don’t ever trust Totally Legit Inspectors Inc). We’re on hiatus currently, but I’ve been trying to push back against the format because I find that constraining.


We had no where near enough clocks. The GM said he doesn’t like faction clocks because he thinks they’d be completing them all the time and make the game chaotic. However, that seems like “superstructure” stuff, which wasn’t being contended as constraint-free.

Oh. Well. That's really going to take a lot of the heat off, and make sure that you can do things like overindulge vice because you have the DTAs to do that. I've spent 2 DTA on vice exactly once in our game. I usually spend all of my coin on extra DTAs. We have a coin machine running now that usually nets us an extra 3-4 coin every downtime, and we, being ambitious, usually aim for getting paid well on scores, so we'll usually bring in around 8 coin per score for 3 PCs and we're almost always broke due to extra DTAs, which mostly keep the lid on the pot, so to speak. Heck, I have a playbook ability that gets me 2 stash per downtime and I've used that often enough by burning 2 stash for 1 coin to get a critical extra DTA. This aspect of the game is crucial for putting in the screws and establishing extra fiction that helps constrain lots of things.

Right now, our current clocks are below. The ones in blue are currently on pause, but still there.

The Lost -- Restraint vs Fervor -- racing 4 tick clocks -- the Lost are a small but fanatical group that fight for the rights of the downtrodden. They'll demonstrate and organize but also firebomb and riot, depending on who's voices are being heard. Right now, they're having an internal fight to see if the violent side violates the Truce in Coalridge. -- currently on pause due to crew actions, will restart in a loop or two.

The Lost vs Master Slaine -- racing 8 tick clocks -- Master Slaine was called in by management after they lost ground to the Unions on the labor dispute in Coalridge. He's a legendarily brutal foreman, and is here to make sure that the Unions get back to work. He is opposed by the Lost, and a brutal alleyway tussle and public opinion battle is underway. -- currently on pause due to the Truce.

Harker Recovers -- 6 clock 2/6 -- after Mister's (my PC) botch attempt to assassinate Harker, Harker escaped from Ironhook prison and is lying low, recovering from his wounds and gathering allies to pursue his revenge against Mister. If this clock completes, Harker will tier back up to 2W (currently 1S).

Spirit Wardens vs Geier Vampire Cult -- racing 4 clocks -- each completed clock tiers the opponent down -- The Spirit Wardens are at war with the Geier Vampire Cult. The crew uncovered the cult and dealt an opening blow but the Wardens have claimed the fight as their own. While the war continues, the Truce is in effect -- all major gangs in the city have pledged to keep violence down under threat of the Wardens and the Ministry becoming keenly interested. The gangs can collectively deal with this easily, but not individually, so each is keeping the Truce.

Deathland Scavenger Pardons -- 6 tick clock -- MUST be addressed every downtime or lose faction with DS. This is one of the results of our negotiation with the DS to gain access to the ancient deathlands gate. We're working as their agents in the city to gain pardons or papers for various members of the group so they can more easily move through Duskvol to sell their found artifacts.

Lure Darmot on the Train -- 6 clock -- Risk (our Lurk) wants to maneuver Inspector Darmot, a retired bluecoat with lots of friends, onto a train to another city so we can push him out. This is because Darmot is blackmailing Risk.

Red Sashes vs Lampblacks -- racing 8 clocks -- whoever completed first downtiers the other and wins the war. The RS and the LB are at war after the LBs shot down Enzio of the RS in duel. This has Crow's Foot in an uproar. -- on pause due to the Truce

Enzio's Revenge -- 4 clock - if filled, Enzio Harm 3 on Mister. Mister has picked up a ghostly possession by the shade of Enzio, who demands Mister avenge him against his killers. If this clock fills, Enzio will harm Mister greatly.

Lure Enzio's Killers -- 4 clock 2/4 -- Mister is working a plan to lure Enzio's killers to a place where we can eliminate them and then get them out of the city before they become a problem, thereby keeping the Truce (no ghosts, no problem for the Spirit Wardens).

1st Word Cult Attacks the Red Sashses -- 8 clock, 4/8 -- on our raid of the 1st Word, we may have left evidence behind pointing toward the Sashes as possible perpetrators. Oops. Now the 1st Word is attacking the Sashes.

1st Word Plague in Nightmarket vs Stop the Spread -- racing 8 vs 6 clocks -- after being raided, the 1st Word has launched their plan to spread the word, causing a supernatural plague of tongues in Nightmarket. It's small now, but will grow if not dealt with, giving the 1st Word quite a bit of power in the process.

And that's our current deal. It's a bit full right now, but we've been busy getting new problems while some old problems are on hold due to the Truce. And, right now, we're trying to determine if the Truce is still helping us or if we'd be better off without it. The Truce was the Warden's push, but our crew helped get it in place, negotiating with some of the gangs that were on the fence. There's still fallout from that waiting to hit (we owe a favor to both the Lampblacks and the Red Sashes). The terms of the Truce are no creation of more ghosts in the city through violence, which is effectively a ban on killing. If not treated, a person that dies creates a ghost in Duskvol. The Wardens usually deal with this, but they have their hands full with a powerful vampire cult and taking the extra work off their hands helps, well, everyone. As bad as the Ministry can be, vampires in charge would be worse. So, the Truce. Luckily, we are well placed to offer convenient services to move the recently deceased out of the city before they become ghostly. Like I said, the crew reps are Ambitious and Daring. Also Haunted, but that one doesn't apply.

@Ovinomancer I think you’ve convinced me that it is possible to create constraints if you do things that eliminate the option of using flashbacks. However, it doesn’t seem like that’s the only way to play. I’m not sure whether one way or the other is better, though I obviously lean towards the latter.

Wasn't exactly my goal, but glad to hear it! And, yes, I absolutely see how your view of the game can be obtained. It's not exactly clear that you have to press hard as a GM on all facets of the game for it to work well. Let off on one or two places and you do end up with a game where there doesn't feel like there's a lot of pressure on the fiction and therefore constraint by it.

 

[kenada]

Yup, sure thing. This isn't directly solving the problem, but is more of a setup to help address the problem. You still have to deal with the desperate situation, but maybe now you have greater effect or scale or what-have-you. This can definitely turn a Desperate/Limited situation where the threat is coming at you and all you have is whatever is at hand to Desperate/Standard or even Desperate/Great, depending on how the setup works. This is 100% kosher. I was speaking to resolving the actual problem via flashback -- that's going to be constrained by how the problem gets established in the fiction. If it's hard to deal with now, it was hard to deal with then, or we wouldn't be here now. That kind of thing.

Oh, okay. I think I understand the distinction now (see further reply below)

Interesting. No, it doesn't preclude it, but then we're back to talking about the costs of this -- if everyone in your crew thinks this is hard enough for a complicated plan, then the flashback has to also be a complicated plan and so costly. Half a score's worth of plan (well, the idea there was a plan) seems really costly to me. I see where you're coming from, but remember that there's a lot of stuff happening "off camera" that is still part of the fiction -- we're just discovering it now. Part of that is the shared understanding that everyone was in on the planning. So, a lot of "planning" went into your character's part and goal at some point. We don't bother with this on stage, but this, to me, adds to the complexity and challenge of a flashback that says you lied to everyone and had a different plan set up. I absolutely see the motivation, though.

I’m not sure I’d give them equal weight in the plan, but I understand what you’re saying. By saying we were going to do do X and Y for the plan, then replacing one of those with a flashback should require a similar amount of complexity in the flashback. Yeah, maybe I got away with pushing that one a little too much. That was our (the players) first major score. The GM probably should have pushed back on that a bit more.

However, it seems like one could also argue that we shouldn’t have been that specific with our plan. For example, if we had just committed to infiltrate the party and steal the item, then seduction for codes or having bribed someone for them are just different ways we could approach the problem. To take it to the extreme, we could flashback to the seduction since actually the target is in on the plan because she’s going to profit too. One might ask why we’re even bothering to infiltrate, but we have to maintain the facade for her insurance fraud to work.

At least tell me you got XP for vice, right?

I think it was for expressing his beliefs, drive, etc. Our GM can be a bit miserly about giving out XP for vice. When I took myself out last session, he was hesitant to give XP for that even though it’s literally the example in the book.

Oh. Well. That's really going to take a lot of the heat off, and make sure that you can do things like overindulge vice because you have the DTAs to do that. I've spent 2 DTA on vice exactly once in our game. I usually spend all of my coin on extra DTAs. We have a coin machine running now that usually nets us an extra 3-4 coin every downtime, and we, being ambitious, usually aim for getting paid well on scores, so we'll usually bring in around 8 coin per score for 3 PCs and we're almost always broke due to extra DTAs, which mostly keep the lid on the pot, so to speak. Heck, I have a playbook ability that gets me 2 stash per downtime and I've used that often enough by burning 2 stash for 1 coin to get a critical extra DTA. This aspect of the game is crucial for putting in the screws and establishing extra fiction that helps constrain lots of things.

We’ve got a module for our ship which lets us spend one DTA and a cred to let everyone indulge vice, so that helps a lot. That’s usually all we need to clear enough stress between scores. I overindulged because I was trying to take myself out, and I burned cred to make it happen.

Right now, our current clocks are below. The ones in blue are currently on pause, but still there.

The Lost -- Restraint vs Fervor -- racing 4 tick clocks -- the Lost are a small but fanatical group that fight for the rights of the downtrodden. They'll demonstrate and organize but also firebomb and riot, depending on who's voices are being heard. Right now, they're having an internal fight to see if the violent side violates the Truce in Coalridge. -- currently on pause due to crew actions, will restart in a loop or two.

The Lost vs Master Slaine -- racing 8 tick clocks -- Master Slaine was called in by management after they lost ground to the Unions on the labor dispute in Coalridge. He's a legendarily brutal foreman, and is here to make sure that the Unions get back to work. He is opposed by the Lost, and a brutal alleyway tussle and public opinion battle is underway. -- currently on pause due to the Truce.

Harker Recovers -- 6 clock 2/6 -- after Mister's (my PC) botch attempt to assassinate Harker, Harker escaped from Ironhook prison and is lying low, recovering from his wounds and gathering allies to pursue his revenge against Mister. If this clock completes, Harker will tier back up to 2W (currently 1S).

Spirit Wardens vs Geier Vampire Cult -- racing 4 clocks -- each completed clock tiers the opponent down -- The Spirit Wardens are at war with the Geier Vampire Cult. The crew uncovered the cult and dealt an opening blow but the Wardens have claimed the fight as their own. While the war continues, the Truce is in effect -- all major gangs in the city have pledged to keep violence down under threat of the Wardens and the Ministry becoming keenly interested. The gangs can collectively deal with this easily, but not individually, so each is keeping the Truce.

Deathland Scavenger Pardons -- 6 tick clock -- MUST be addressed every downtime or lose faction with DS. This is one of the results of our negotiation with the DS to gain access to the ancient deathlands gate. We're working as their agents in the city to gain pardons or papers for various members of the group so they can more easily move through Duskvol to sell their found artifacts.

Lure Darmot on the Train -- 6 clock -- Risk (our Lurk) wants to maneuver Inspector Darmot, a retired bluecoat with lots of friends, onto a train to another city so we can push him out. This is because Darmot is blackmailing Risk.

Red Sashes vs Lampblacks -- racing 8 clocks -- whoever completed first downtiers the other and wins the war. The RS and the LB are at war after the LBs shot down Enzio of the RS in duel. This has Crow's Foot in an uproar. -- on pause due to the Truce

Enzio's Revenge -- 4 clock - if filled, Enzio Harm 3 on Mister. Mister has picked up a ghostly possession by the shade of Enzio, who demands Mister avenge him against his killers. If this clock fills, Enzio will harm Mister greatly.

Lure Enzio's Killers -- 4 clock 2/4 -- Mister is working a plan to lure Enzio's killers to a place where we can eliminate them and then get them out of the city before they become a problem, thereby keeping the Truce (no ghosts, no problem for the Spirit Wardens).

1st Word Cult Attacks the Red Sashses -- 8 clock, 4/8 -- on our raid of the 1st Word, we may have left evidence behind pointing toward the Sashes as possible perpetrators. Oops. Now the 1st Word is attacking the Sashes.

1st Word Plague in Nightmarket vs Stop the Spread -- racing 8 vs 6 clocks -- after being raided, the 1st Word has launched their plan to spread the word, causing a supernatural plague of tongues in Nightmarket. It's small now, but will grow if not dealt with, giving the 1st Word quite a bit of power in the process.

And that's our current deal. It's a bit full right now, but we've been busy getting new problems while some old problems are on hold due to the Truce. And, right now, we're trying to determine if the Truce is still helping us or if we'd be better off without it. The Truce was the Warden's push, but our crew helped get it in place, negotiating with some of the gangs that were on the fence. There's still fallout from that waiting to hit (we owe a favor to both the Lampblacks and the Red Sashes). The terms of the Truce are no creation of more ghosts in the city through violence, which is effectively a ban on killing. If not treated, a person that dies creates a ghost in Duskvol. The Wardens usually deal with this, but they have their hands full with a powerful vampire cult and taking the extra work off their hands helps, well, everyone. As bad as the Ministry can be, vampires in charge would be worse. So, the Truce. Luckily, we are well placed to offer convenient services to move the recently deceased out of the city before they become ghostly. Like I said, the crew reps are Ambitious and Daring. Also Haunted, but that one doesn't apply.

That’s a lot of clocks! We’ve only had a couple at most, and those were player-initiated projects. We started off with someone’s wanting our Snarf, but that faded away when we outran their ship. Like I said, we seem to be stuck in an episodic format because that’s what the GM likes.

Wasn't exactly my goal, but glad to hear it! And, yes, I absolutely see how your view of the game can be obtained. It's not exactly clear that you have to press hard as a GM on all facets of the game for it to work well. Let off on one or two places and you do end up with a game where there doesn't feel like there's a lot of pressure on the fiction and therefore constraint by it.

Cool. This conversation has helped me understand BitD a bit better.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Oh, okay. I think I understand the distinction now (see further reply below)


I’m not sure I’d give them equal weight in the plan, but I understand what you’re saying. By saying we were going to do do X and Y for the plan, then replacing one of those with a flashback should require a similar amount of complexity in the flashback. Yeah, maybe I got away with pushing that one a little too much. That was our (the players) first major score. The GM probably should have pushed back on that a bit more.

However, it seems like one could also argue that we shouldn’t have been that specific with our plan. For example, if we had just committed to infiltrate the party and steal the item, then seduction for codes or having bribed someone for them are just different ways we could approach the problem. To take it to the extreme, we could flashback to the seduction since actually the target is in on the plan because she’s going to profit too. One might ask why we’re even bothering to infiltrate, but we have to maintain the facade for her insurance fraud to work.


I think it was for expressing his beliefs, drive, etc. Our GM can be a bit miserly about giving out XP for vice. When I took myself out last session, he was hesitant to give XP for that even though it’s literally the example in the book.


We’ve got a module for our ship which lets us spend one DTA and a cred to let everyone indulge vice, so that helps a lot. That’s usually all we need to clear enough stress between scores. I overindulged because I was trying to take myself out, and I burned cred to make it happen.


That’s a lot of clocks! We’ve only had a couple at most, and those were player-initiated projects. We started off with someone’s wanting our Snarf, but that faded away when we outran their ship. Like I said, we seem to be stuck in an episodic format because that’s what the GM likes.


Cool. This conversation has helped me understand BitD a bit better.

A couple of general thoughts -- the GM shouldn't be awarding XP, you should. If you feel you hit a thing, then mark XP and tell everyone. If it's something that's icky, then the table will side eye you and a discussion can be had, but at no point is your XP dependent on the GM awarding it to you. In this regard, they have no more authority than another player -- they can question, but that's it. From the Blades rules (and I imagine it's not any different for S&V):

Which events in the story match the experience triggers for character and crew advancement? Did you express your character’s beliefs, drives, heritage, or background? You tell us. The players have final say.

Emphasis in original.

And, yes, if you try to run a FitD game as a series of disconnected episodes, it's not going to work as intended because it's not going to be putting the pressure on the characters that's required. It sounds like your GM is also determining what the scores are going to be about? That's a no-no as well. They shouldn't be doing anything but reacting to the players' actions. This still leaves a huge space for the GM to influence the game, but we pick our scores (unless a complication shows up in which case we get a choice to resolve that as our next score or pay the price). This also puts pressure on the fiction, as it's the players' choices on how they do this and this establishes clear fiction as feed in constraints for scores.

 

[kenada]

A couple of general thoughts -- the GM shouldn't be awarding XP, you should. If you feel you hit a thing, then mark XP and tell everyone. If it's something that's icky, then the table will side eye you and a discussion can be had, but at no point is your XP dependent on the GM awarding it to you. In this regard, they have no more authority than another player -- they can question, but that's it. From the Blades rules (and I imagine it's not any different for S&V)

Scum and Villainy doesn’t explicitly call out that the players have the final say. What section is that from in BitD? I only have access to the SRD, but I didn’t see it in the advancement section.

The way our end of session goes is people say what they think they did, and the GM gives a yay or nay. It sounds like you just say what you mark, and people can offer (non-vetoing) objections for things that seem questionable.

And, yes, if you try to run a FitD game as a series of disconnected episodes, it's not going to work as intended because it's not going to be putting the pressure on the characters that's required. It sounds like your GM is also determining what the scores are going to be about? That's a no-no as well. They shouldn't be doing anything but reacting to the players' actions. This still leaves a huge space for the GM to influence the game, but we pick our scores (unless a complication shows up in which case we get a choice to resolve that as our next score or pay the price). This also puts pressure on the fiction, as it's the players' choices on how they do this and this establishes clear fiction as feed in constraints for scores.

From what I can tell, he comes with a framework prepared that gets flavored into what we decide to do. I’ve been pushing back on this. Last session’s heist was my just asserting we would be jacking a drug shipment (after confirming our pilot still wanted more spacedrugs). We still ended up getting funneled through a fixer (even though I would have rather we kept it for ourselves), but it apparently took him bu surprise.

I’m not really sure how we would go about changing the episodic dynamic. Like I said, I’ve been trying to push back, but the other players don’t play their characters hard like I do mine. It’s one of the reasons why I think SWN would be a better fit for us (not that I have the power to get us to change or would be willing to run that on top of WWN).

We’re on hiatus now though, so I guess it’s moot. I don’t know when the player who took a break will be available again, and I have a feeling we might just start something new if/when he does come back.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Scum and Villainy doesn’t explicitly call out that the players have the final say. What section is that from in BitD? I only have access to the SRD, but I didn’t see it in the advancement section.

It's on page 6 of the rulebook -- the Core System.

It's also in the SRD, first heading under Judgement Calls, in the subheading The Core System under Game Rules (SRD).

The way our end of session goes is people say what they think they did, and the GM gives a yay or nay. It sounds like you just say what you mark, and people can offer (non-vetoing) objections for things that seem questionable.

Yup, that's how it's supposed to work.

From what I can tell, he comes with a framework prepared that gets flavored into what we decide to do. I’ve been pushing back on this. Last session’s heist was my just asserting we would be jacking a drug shipment (after confirming our pilot still wanted more spacedrugs). We still ended up getting funneled through a fixer (even though I would have rather we kept it for ourselves), but it apparently took him bu surprise.

I’m not really sure how we would go about changing the episodic dynamic. Like I said, I’ve been trying to push back, but the other players don’t play their characters hard like I do mine. It’s one of the reasons why I think SWN would be a better fit for us (not that I have the power to get us to change or would be willing to run that on top of WWN).

We’re on hiatus now though, so I guess it’s moot. I don’t know when the player who took a break will be available again, and I have a feeling we might just start something new if/when he does come back.

I couldn't say how to fix this, if it does even start again. I'm not sure that's a thing without a very serious conversation about the game and what everyone wants out of it with the table. It very well may be that the GM does want to play it another way, in which case 'fixing' is synonymous with 'stopping.' If the GM is already ditching faction clocks because he feels that makes the game too chaotic... I'm not sure they're going to be open to the chaos that a FitD game is really about to begin with. It sound like he's trying to manage the structure of scores as well, which again goes to trying to play S&V in a more traditional way instead of the way it's intended. Which is s'ok, if everyone's having fun.

 

[kenada]

It's on page 6 of the rulebook -- the Core System.

It's also in the SRD, first heading under Judgement Calls, in the subheading The Core System under Game Rules (SRD).

Ah, there it is. Scum and Villainy does have that. That’s what happens when you don’t sit down and give a book a proper read through.

I couldn't say how to fix this, if it does even start again. I'm not sure that's a thing without a very serious conversation about the game and what everyone wants out of it with the table. It very well may be that the GM does want to play it another way, in which case 'fixing' is synonymous with 'stopping.'

It’s definitely worth having a conversation about expectations and style should we start back up a second game. I’m not sure I would want to continue in the episodic format.

If the GM is already ditching faction clocks because he feels that makes the game too chaotic... I'm not sure they're going to be open to the chaos that a FitD game is really about to begin with. It sound like he's trying to manage the structure of scores as well, which again goes to trying to play S&V in a more traditional way instead of the way it's intended. Which is s'ok, if everyone's having fun.

From what I recall, people were having fun, but I think some of the shine was wearing off. Personally, I was starting to get frustrated by the things I’ve mentioned here.