Converting Al-Qadim creatures

[Shade]

I supsect you are correct. It seems just flavor differences.

So, start with great roc?

 

[GrayLinnorm]

For starters, change the creature type (especially for the two-headed variety) to magical beast.

 

[Cleon]

Looks good to me.

Looks OK, we might as well move on to the next one...

Ooh! Three Rocs for the price of one.

Shall we do these one at a time, in order?

The Common Roc is essentially identical to the standard 2nd edition Roc.

We could just say it's the same as the SRD Roc, but I'd be game for giving it slightly tweaked stats.

First, I'd change the Type to Magical Beast - there's a reason they look "too big to be real". Nothing natural that size should be able to fly, and it means all the Zakharan Rocs will be the same Type (although I can see them being different if you'd prefer).

This will up its Hit Dice to 18d10+126 (225hp) increase its Base Attack Bonus to BAB +18 and hence add 5 to its attacks and Grapple.

Next, I'd fancy boosting its Strength and natural weapons a tad.

The SRD Roc's Strength 34 means it can fly with up to 7456 pounds - the weight of an average African Bull Elephant. I'd like to up that to Str 38, so it can fly with up to 12,800 pounds - the weight of a little whale or a record-sized elephant.

As for the claws and bite, I would like to increase both of the SRD Roc's attacks by a size step to 3d6 talons and 3d8 bite. That's more or less the same dice as the 2nd edition version.

Oh, and I'd be tempted to add "island forests" to the Environment, since there are tales of them nesting on the ground in such places rather than using mountain-top eyries (or should that be roceries?).

That's about all I'd want to do to them. Applying these changes to the SRD Roc would yield the following. I didn't modified the Challenge Rating - do you think it's enough of a boost to make it CR10?

Roc, Zakharan, Common Roc
Size/Type: Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 18d10+126 (225 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (average)
Armor Class: 17 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+44
Attack: Talon +28 melee (3d6+14)
Full Attack: 2 talons +28 melee (3d6+14) and bite +26 melee (3d8+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +18, Ref +13, Will +9
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 11
Skills: Hide -3, Listen +10, Spot +14
Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Wingover
Environment: Warm mountains and island forests
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 19-32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-54 (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: —

A Zakharan common roc has brilliant, multicolored plumage. Their wings and backs are typically a shade of green or gold and their beaks range from pale ivory to a rich shade of brass. The leading edge of their wings is a vibrant crimson. Male common rocs have crests of the same crimson hue, while females have snowy white breasts.

These enormous creatures are 60 feet long from their beak to the end of their 20-foot long tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 120 feet. A typical Zakharan common roc weighs between 25000 and 30,000 pounds.

 

[freyar]

I'd think you could boost the CR to 10 for that. I do think the Zakharan common roc was probably intended to be a reprint of the standard roc, but it is there separately. Plus it makes sense to have all three be magical beasts. Sure, I can go for that.

 

[Cleon]

I'd think you could boost the CR to 10 for that. I do think the Zakharan common roc was probably intended to be a reprint of the standard roc, but it is there separately. Plus it makes sense to have all three be magical beasts. Sure, I can go for that.

Glad we agreed. Let's make it CR10.

I'll also note the Zakharan Common Roc appears to be bigger than the standard 3E version, since it has a wingspan "as wide as 120 feet" compared to the SRD's "as wide as 80 feet".

So let's up the dimensions and weight a bit, which would also help explain the higher Strength. We could change it to something like "These enormous creatures are 60 feet long from their beak to the end of their 20-foot long tail feathers, with wingspans as wide as 120 feet. A typical Zakharan common roc weighs between 25000 and 30,000 pounds."

I think that'll do, unless you can see something else that needs tweaking.

I'll edit my previous post to change the Challenge Rating and add a description.

 

[Cleon]

Oh, and there's some mention of training Rocs in the original version, do we want to add a "Training a Zahkaran Common Roc" subentry?

 

[freyar]

SRD rocs don't have a training entry, so maybe I wouldn't. But it's not a big deal to me; just remember that the DCs are harder for magical beasts.

 

[Shade]

I'm still not convinced that these warrant a separate conversion, but since you've already done most of the work, I'll be happy to add 'em to Homebrews.

I think we can skip the training section, as these things are too huge and too high-CR to really serve as mounts.

 

[Cleon]

SRD rocs don't have a training entry, so maybe I wouldn't. But it's not a big deal to me; just remember that the DCs are harder for magical beasts.

Might as well. I was thinking of something like the following:

Training A Zakharan Common Roc
A Zakharan common roc can be trained to perform various tasks if they are tamed by raising them from the egg, but this is a very difficult endeavour. Raising a Zakharan common roc from the egg requires fifteen weeks of work and a DC 35 Handle Animal check.

The tamed Zakharan common roc can then be trained for the purposes of Combat Riding, Fighting, Hunting or Riding as per the Handle Animal skill, except the DCs are 10 higher than the defaults. For example, training a Zakharan common roc to bear a rider in combat requires six weeks of work and a DC 30 Handle Animal check. Riding a roc requires an exotic saddle. A roc can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check.

Zakharan common roc eggs are worth 18000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 36000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 2000 gp per week to rear or train a Zakharan common roc.

A combat-trained Zakharan common roc is worth at least 60000 gp (the combined cost of an egg and 21 weeks of rearing and training), a tame but untrained common roc costs a minimum of 48000 gp.

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a Zakharan common roc is up to 12800 pounds; a medium load, 12801-25600 pounds; and a heavy load, 25601-38800 pounds.
​

Regarding the crucial matter of cost. The original text says a common roc egg costs 2d6 times 100 gp, but that's obviously way too low going by the SRD examples:

Griffin (7HD, CR4) - eggs 3500 gp, young 7000gp, combat training 1500gp
Giant Eagle/Owl (4HD, CR3) - eggs 2500 gp, young 4000 gp, combat training 1000gp.
Hippogriff (3HD, CR2) - eggs 2000 gp, young 3000 gp, combat training 1000gp.

That looks like magical flying mounts cost 1000 gp/HD as young, and combat training costs 500 gp/CR.

For a Common Roc, that would translate as: eggs 9000gp, chicks 18000gp, combat training 5000 gp.

I fancied making the training costs 1000 gp/week, so a combat-trained Common Roc would cost 30000 gp (9k egg + 15k taming + 6k training).

That still felt too low, so I just doubled all the costs.

Does that feel right to you?

An Iron Golem costs 250% that much (150,000gp) for the same number of Hit Dice, but the golem has immunity to magic and a much better AC. Not to mention you don't have to feed and house a golem.

 

[Cleon]

I think we can skip the training section, as these things are too huge and too high-CR to really serve as mounts.

Too late.