Converting Creatures from Other Campaign Settings

[freyar]

Ooh, another one to do, fun!

The problem I have with the original text's version of the AC (besides some lack of logic) is that the NA bonus from the original base constructs is quite low. I'd be ok with it if we make those more reasonable.

Well, one way to do a movement limitation would be to penalize the base creature's Dex or to use the base construct's Dex (all physical stats, really). Not sure if that's sufficient, though.

 

[Cleon]

Ooh, another one to do, fun!

The problem I have with the original text's version of the AC (besides some lack of logic) is that the NA bonus from the original base constructs is quite low. I'd be ok with it if we make those more reasonable.

Well once we balance out the size adjustment and Dex adjustment (if any) the number's a bit better.

e.g. if a wooden juggernaut's overall 1-point AC improvement presumably includes the size penalty (-4) and a Dex penalty of, say -2, it'll need a +7 NA. That's actually better than the +6 NA a Huge Animated Object has.

Oh blast it, an answer's staring me in the face! Why don't we just use the Huge Animated Object as a model? It's the same basic concept - an object animated by a spell. A Huge Animated Object has +6 NA and a Dex of 8, suggesting +6 NA and a -2 Dex penalty for the "basic" wooden juggernaut.

Well, one way to do a movement limitation would be to penalize the base creature's Dex or to use the base construct's Dex (all physical stats, really). Not sure if that's sufficient, though.

The problem with that approach is that the construct fights like the pilot, except slightly slower (-1 on initiative rolls plus special maneuvering rules). Its weapons do the same damage as the pilot's, plus a "goliath bonus" due to how large and strong it is.

Hmm, how about if we make it so the Juggernaut cannot Run? At least that would be simple!

Oh, except the Stone Juggernaut is even less maneuverable... I guess we can fix that with a special rule in the "Stone Juggernaut" section. Maybe "If a stone juggernaut makes a double move or a full-round movement action it must travel in a straight line and moves as if it were charging (see Movement During a Charge)."?

Oh, and that -1 to Initiative strongly suggest we ought to give it a -2 racial penalty to Dex. For the damage, a basic +16 to Str for the Wooden Juggernaut would seem a decent fit (and maybe +8 for the Wicker and +24 for the Stone?)

 

[freyar]

If we're going with Huge, I guess that would work. So you're suggesting base creature's AC with a +6 NA bonus for the wooden juggernaut? But each leg is made of 3 trees, and a treant is already Huge, so shouldn't these be Gargantuan with a correspondingly larger NA? This may be part of the issue we're having.

I can go with a Dex penalty and "cannot Run." Does that do enough?

 

[Cleon]

If we're going with Huge, I guess that would work. So you're suggesting base creature's AC with a +6 NA bonus for the wooden juggernaut? But each leg is made of 3 trees, and a treant is already Huge, so shouldn't these be Gargantuan with a correspondingly larger NA? This may be part of the issue we're having.

The rules for Juggernauts in Jakandor - Island of War, which is basically the "Knorr sourcebook", says they are 30 feet tall. The illustrations on pages 5 and 70 of that book both show Juggernauts that scale to about 30 feet tall, assuming the human figures are, well, human size.

A 3E Treant is 30 feet tall, roughly man-shaped and composed of wood.

A standard Guardian Juggernaut is 30 feet tall, roughly man-shaped and composed of wood.

It seems reasonable to assume they are the same size category, which'll make the juggernauts Huge.

The flavour text description does talk about their legs being made from the "boles of three trees", but I guess they could just be very small trees! It also says its torso's "larger than an oxcart" which is less help than you'd think it would be, as it doesn't say how big this eponymous ox cart is.

It's worth noting that the illustrations on pages 4 and 141 of Jakandor - Land of Legend show Juggernauts that look significantly bigger than 30 feet compared to the human figures in the picture. Maybe somewhere in the region of 50-60 feet? It's hard to tell. There's another picture on page 139 that show two battling goliaths who are several times taller than the trees they stand behind. Unless they're very small trees, the constructs in the picture would have to be 100+ feet tall. I'm inclined to trust the "Knorr sourcebook" more on its scaling of these constructs.

In conclusion, I think it's easiest to say Juggernauts start out Huge sized, but if you want a bigger one it's a simple matter of using a base construct that's had its HD advanced to a larger size.

I can go with a Dex penalty and "cannot Run." Does that do enough?

The thing is, they're supposed to be used offensively, and if we give them that speed then ordinary humans on foot can use Run actions to simply dash around them.

Maybe we should just give the Stone variant the "cannot Run" trait, since the flavour text says they are mainly used defensively due to their lack of maneuverability?

It means we're dropping most the special maneuvering rules of the original rules, but frankly they'd be a pain to implement in game.

 

[freyar]

Huge it is, with the NA and Dex penalty you suggested.

I agree that the original movement rules were, as often the case back then, unnecessarily complex. I could either go with giving all of them or just the Stone one "cannot Run." If you're worried about the speed, make the speed the same as the base construct rather than the base creature. Big things often have faster speeds due to longer strides.

 

[Cleon]

Huge it is, with the NA and Dex penalty you suggested.

I agree that the original movement rules were, as often the case back then, unnecessarily complex. I could either go with giving all of them or just the Stone one "cannot Run." If you're worried about the speed, make the speed the same as the base construct rather than the base creature. Big things often have faster speeds due to longer strides.

I was planning on using the base construct speed.

We should probably add a proviso that if the base creature has a movement-increasing power it applies to the Juggernaut (e.g. a Barbarian-controlled Juggernaut would have speed 50 ft. because of its Fast Movement ability). Yes, that would include a Monk's Unarmored Speed Bonus...

How about this:

Speed: The juggernaut has the same speed as the base construct (40 ft. for wood, stone and wicker juggernauts, 10 ft. for winged juggernauts. In addition, stone juggernauts cannot run, and winged juggernauts have a 50 ft. [poor] fly speed).

If the base creature has a special ability that affects its speed, such as a barbarian's fast movement or a monk's unarmored speed bonus, this alters the juggernaut's speed as if it were the base creature.

If you're OK with that, I think it's time for an update.

 

[freyar]

That's good for me, though I'm not sure if the parenthetical explaining about each type should just be left out and stuck into the base constructs.

 

[Cleon]

That's good for me, though I'm not sure if the parenthetical explaining about each type should just be left out and stuck into the base constructs.

Updating Guardian Juggernaut Working Draft.

 

[Cleon]

OK, the next entries are the attack section.

Base Attack/Grapple
Add the base attack bonus for the base creature to the base attack bonus for the base construct (typically +2 for wicker, +3 for winged and wooden, or +5 for stone).

Attacks
A guardian juggernaut retains all the attacks of the base creature, but it can only attack with a weapon that it has been equipped with. See the special quality Juggernaut Equipment Slots for details.

In addition, the guardian juggernaut gains the natural attacks of the base construct as natural weapons (two slams for wicker, wooden, and stone juggernauts; or two claw attacks and a secondary bite attack for winged juggernauts).

Full Attack
A guardian juggernaut fighting without weapons uses its natural weapons (see above). If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack along with a slam or other natural weapon as a natural secondary attack.

Damage
The damage of the base creature's weapons is adjusted according to the juggernaut's size. The natural weapons of standard juggernaut base constructs do damage according to the following table:

Guardian Juggernaut Natural Attack Table

Juggernaut	Stone​	Wooden​	Wicker​	Winged​
Size Medium Large Huge Gargantuan Colossal	[TABLE="width: 60"] [TR] [TD] Slam 1d6 1d8 2d6 3d6 4d6​

[/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 60"] [TR] [TD]

Slam
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6
3d6​

[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 60"] [TR] [TD]

Slam
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6​

[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [TD][TABLE="width: 90"] [TR] [TD]

Claw
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8​

[/TD] [TD]

Bite
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6
​

[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] I set the standard Huge sized Stone Juggernaut's slam damage to equal that of an Animated Object of the same size and scaled the rest to fit. The Wooden and Wicker versions still do more average damage than an Animated Object, since they have two slam attacks rather than one and will have higher Strength scores.

I had trouble with the formatting of the above table. Does the following work better?

Guardian Juggernaut Natural Attack Table
[TABLE="width: 420"] [TR] [TD]
Size
Medium
Large
Huge
Gargantuan
Colossal[/TD] [TD]

Stone
Slam
1d6
1d8
2d6
3d6
4d6
​

[/TD] [TD]

Wooden
Slam
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6
3d6
​

[/TD] [TD]

Wicker
Slam
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6
​

[/TD] [TD]

Winged
Claw
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
​

[/TD] [TD]

Winged
Bite
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
2d6​

[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] End of post.

 

[freyar]

Did you want to have the two slams for the wicker along with the claws and bite? I find that wording a bit confusing. Oh, I see from the table you meant "winged" for the claws and bite.

Damage values are ok. And I do think the second table looks a bit better.