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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cleon" data-source="post: 6078563" data-attributes="member: 57383">You're only saying that because he agrees with you. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Regarding the level issues, even if the ancient order of wizards never gained a 17th-level caster among their numbers despite 200 years of adventuring, under the 3E RAW they could simply buy a few high-level scrolls of imprisonment, trap the soul or whatever.As for the original adventure's recommended levels, I thought we'd settled that this would be an Epic Version of the Dark King way back at the start of this conversion. The Ythog-Nthlei in Dragon #46 would probably come out as something like a CR 14-16 creature, based on its 26 HD and lack of explicit SLAs, but I thought we were aiming for a CR somewhere in the low 20s.Anyhow, I was mulling over the best way of breaking this impasse, 'cause I had a feeling Freyar and I may never agree on it, and came up with the idea of moving the contentious SAs to a underbar and leaving it to the individual DMs to decide whether or not to use them.e.g., we cut the "interact with transdimensional targets" stuff from Beyond Time and Space and make it a separate SQ, then make Beyond Death and Beyond Time and Space optional SQs.Something like the following. Note that I tweaked Beyond Death a little so he can be killed by beings with a divine rank:Beyond This Plane (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei can attack incorporeal and out-of-phase targets without penalty and ignores the effects of blink or displacement powers. He sees all adjacent dimensions clearly, including the Astral Plane, Ethereal Plane and the interiors of extradimensional spaces such as a rope trick, maze or portable hole. Transcendental Ythog-Nthlei Those sages who know of the Dark King have long speculated why the ancient mages who defeated him put the Old One in an enchanted slumber and imprisoned him bodily within his temple when they could have destroyed him with a sphere of annihilation or permanently trapped him with imprisonment, trap the soul or a similar spell. Some of these scholars came to the conclusion that Ythog-Nthlei proved impossible to trap or destroy, so placing him in an endless sleep was the best option. If you wish this to be the case with Ythog-Nthlei, add one or both of the following special qualities: Beyond Death (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei can not be killed by any mortal power, it takes a deity with a divine rank to slay him. If brought to -10 hit points by a nondivine attacker, Ythog-Nthlei's body melts away, leaving nothing but an unspeakable stain, but he will reappear at some later time or on some other plane without suffering any penalties for having died. He reappears even if the Dark King's body and spirit are annihilated. The time-delay and distance of Ythog-Nthlei's reappearance after death is at the DM's discretion, but may be considerable (e.g. 1d100 years later on the spot he died, or immediately on the lowermost layer of the Abyss). Any effect that permanently incapacitates Ythog-Nthlei or renders him helpless for more than a month (petrification, being ability drained to Wisdom 0 or Dexterity 0, long-term paralysis, polymorphing into a non-combative form, et cetera) is considered to have "killed" him and triggers his rebirth. Note that sleep effects do not trigger Beyond Death. Beyond Time and Space (Ex): Ythog-Nthlei transcends spatial and temporal limitations. Any effect that would trap Ythog-Nthlei in time or space, such as temporal stasis, trap the soul, imprisonment, or a wish to banish him to another plane will only last for 1d100 days, after which Ythog-Nthlei reappears as if by greater teleport or plane shift. Finally, if any creature uses time stop within 150 feet of Ythog-Nthlei he can attempt to interrupt the time stop as a free action. If Ythog-Nthlei succeeds at a Will save against the DC of the time stop, he can choose to have the time stop fail or actually enter the time stop with the other creature. If Ythog-Nthlei and another creature share a time stop they can target each other attacks or spells as if they were both in normal time, but creatures outside the time stop are invulnerable to their attacks and spells. This ability does not hinder Ythog-Nthlei using time- or space-manipulation powers on himself.Would that be OK?</blockquote>

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