Converting prehistoric creatures

[Cleon]

I'm no expert on these things, but this...

...suggests a Spines attack. Or are these simply decorative spines?

They're hefty spines similar to those of some armoured dinosaurs like Polacanthus. They look formidable enough to be defensive weapons, but I was reluctant to start the Working Draft with anything that wasn't in the Dragon #102 Aetosaur or the 3E Crocodile.

I'd be happy to add them once we agree on the basics.

 

[Shade]

They're hefty spines similar to those of some armoured dinosaurs like Polacanthus. They look formidable enough to be defensive weapons, but I was reluctant to start the Working Draft with anything that wasn't in the Dragon #102 Aetosaur or the 3E Crocodile.

I'd be happy to add them once we agree on the basics.

I'm ready to agree with the basics you've got in the Working Draft.

 

[Cleon]

I'm ready to agree with the basics you've got in the Working Draft.

So, what would you like to do with the spines, the usual spiny defense, as used in out Dacentrurus conversion, or do we allow for it to employ them offensively like the Giant Porcupine Fish?

Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that hits a dacentrurus in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or take 1d6+6 points of damage from the creature’s broad spines. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Spines (Ex): Any creature striking an inflated giant porcupine fish with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d6-1 points of piercing and slashing damage from the fish's spines, and expose them to the fish's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A giant porcupine fish may also use its spines offensively.

Which translates:

#1 Spiny Defense (Ex): Any creature that hits an aetosaur in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take Y points of damage from the creature’s broad spines. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

#2 Spines (Ex): Any creature striking an aetosaur with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes X points of piercing and slashing damage from the reptile's spines. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. An aetosaur may also use its spines offensively.

Or we could combine the two into a save-avoided spiny defense plus a spiny offense:

Attack/Full Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4) or spines +6 melee (1d4+4)

#3 Spines (Ex): Any creature striking an aetosaur with handheld weapons or natural weapons must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take X points of piercing and slashing damage from the reptile's spines. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. An aetosaur may also use its spines offensively.

An aetosaur doesn't have many spines, but their pretty big and pointy, so I'm leaning toward option #3.

 

[Shade]

Option #3 appeals.

 

[freyar]

Hmm, I'd like to hear from RavinRay if possible on the offensive use, but I'll agree tentatively.

 

[Cleon]

Hmm, I'd like to hear from RavinRay if possible on the offensive use, but I'll agree tentatively.

I can wait.

 

[RavinRay]

The shoulder spikes seem like they work best when the animal is charging or turning it's head and shoulders sideways. I suppose you can work the damage when the aetosaur charges?

 

[Cleon]

The shoulder spikes seem like they work best when the animal is charging or turning it's head and shoulders sideways. I suppose you can work the damage when the aetosaur charges?

That would fall under option #3, which provides a standard melee attack with its spines it can use for a charge attack.

We could add a "powerful charge" so its spines do more damage when it charges, but I think that's straying too far. Besides, the spines point sideways or at an angle, they're not that well placed for a charge attack.

 

[RavinRay]

Hmm… that's a valid point about the charge. If we opt to make spines offensive as well as defensive (#1 and #2 options) weapons, would a slam make sense?

 

[Cleon]

Hmm… that's a valid point about the charge. If we opt to make spines offensive as well as defensive (#1 and #2 options) weapons, would a slam make sense?

#2 is an offensive plus defensive option like #3, the difference is that #3 has a Reflex save to avoid the defensive spines, while #2 has the defensive spines hit automatically.

Anyhow, #3 already is the combination of #1 and #2 options so I'll add it to the Working Draft. I'll give the defensive spines the same damage as the standard attack version.

… would a slam make sense?

Are we proposing adding a slam attack which can be augmented by a Powerful Charge?

Don't care for that. We've already added one attack (assuming we're using the spines), and as far as I can tell aetosaurs don't seem to be built for charging any more than most tetrapods. Is there any evidence of them having reinforced necks or heads, or other impact-surviving adaptations?

I'd leave it at Spines.

They look about done mechanically, which just leaves the flavour text.

I'm thinking 6 to 8 feet long (including tail) and 150 to 400 pounds for a "typical aetosaur". Smaller species can be as little as half that size (i.e. roughly a yard long), and the largest Aetosaurs like Desmatosuchus were about twice as big (up to 15 feet?).