Spelljammer Converting Spelljammer creatures

[freyar]

Sure, that works well enough.

Should we increase the CL to 8th, since the original monster text mentions that level of casting?

 

[Cleon]

Hold on, what was I thinking. The Undead Old Master has a worse AC than a regular AD&D neogi.

It's AC is 5, same as a Great Old Master, while a normal Neogi is AC 3 in Spelljammer.

How did I make that error? Maybe I was reading "No Appearance: 1" as "Armor Class: 1"?

Hmm... Anyhow, that suggests we should lower its Dexterity or Natural Armor.

A 3E Great Old Master has a low natural armour for its size (+6, which is 2 points less than the +8 you'd get advancing an adult Neogi's +3 NA from Small to Huge).

So, shall we cut the Undead Old Master's NA to +1?

I don't really want to weaken its Finesse Attacks and Ref saves by lowering its Dex.

 

[freyar]

Remember, though, a great old master is a giant, bloated thing, but the undead old master is still like a regular adult neogi. So I don't think the great old master makes a good comparison for the undead old master.

Given this quote, "They move slowly, but in spell use and anticipating enemies, they are very, very, quick," I think I'd rather decrease Dex slightly than decrease NA, but only to Dex 18. Speaking of speed, does speed 3 really translate to 30 ft? I thought 30 ft was a higher movement rate.

I'm starting to think we should bump up the casting ability, though.

 

[Cleon]

Remember, though, a great old master is a giant, bloated thing, but the undead old master is still like a regular adult neogi. So I don't think the great old master makes a good comparison for the undead old master.

Given this quote, "They move slowly, but in spell use and anticipating enemies, they are very, very, quick," I think I'd rather decrease Dex slightly than decrease NA, but only to Dex 18. Speaking of speed, does speed 3 really translate to 30 ft? I thought 30 ft was a higher movement rate.

Speed 3 in AD&D terms is basically 10 ft., the current draft just has the same speed as a Neogi Adult/Neogi Sorcerer.

Hmm, the original Undead Old Master has the same AC (5) and Move (3) as an AD&D Great Old Master, which are both lower than a standard AD&D Neogi (AC 3, Mv 6), so I think there is a case for comparing the two.

A 3E Great Old Master has speeds 10 ft. slower than a standard adult, Dex 8 points lower, and a comparatively weak AC for its size.

If we do lower the Dex instead of the NA I'd give it at a -4, so its AC is 2 worse like the original monster.

Oh, and its speed ought to be 20 ft., climb 10 ft.

I'm starting to think we should bump up the casting ability, though.

Contrariwise, I'm fine with CL 6th.

 

[freyar]

OK, you propose Speed 20 ft, climb 10 ft and Dex 16? I could go for that.

The original critter says "Most encountered undead old masters are the equivalent of 8th-level wizards (to find an individual’s level of spell use, roll 1d8+4)." The CL 6 is a holdover from the LoM neogi sorc, right? So I'd rather bump the CL to 8. That would help explain how it can become a "lich-lite," too.

 

[Cleon]

OK, you propose Speed 20 ft, climb 10 ft and Dex 16? I could go for that.

Updating the Neogi Undead Old Master Working Draft.

The original critter says "Most encountered undead old masters are the equivalent of 8th-level wizards (to find an individual’s level of spell use, roll 1d8+4)." The CL 6 is a holdover from the LoM neogi sorc, right? So I'd rather bump the CL to 8. That would help explain how it can become a "lich-lite," too.

As I said earlier, 8th level is the average old master caster level. The AD&D original can be as low as a 5th level spellcaster, or a level less than our conversion.

So I'm fine with it as a 6th level caster like at present.

 

[Cleon]

So I'm fine with it as a 6th level caster like at present.

Still, I'm not dead set against making them 8th level. Would you care to argue your case?

 

[freyar]

The main thing is just that 6th CL seems a little low for gaining some lich-like powers. Think of it as a template prereq. Also, a boost over the "typical" LoM neogi sorc seems reasonable. But it's not a big deal.

Along those lines, you raise the issue of skill ranks. Do you want to make these "template-like" so they have the ranks of their casting class?

 

[Cleon]

The main thing is just that 6th CL seems a little low for gaining some lich-like powers. Think of it as a template prereq. Also, a boost over the "typical" LoM neogi sorc seems reasonable. But it's not a big deal.

Well it's not that lich-like, is it. The Old Master doesn't have a phylactery-based ability to return to unlife after being destroyed, which is the lich's most useful power. Nor does it have a lich's fear aura, damage reduction, and immunities to cold, electricity, and polymorph.

Basically, the main similarity is it attack cause cold damage and incapacity, but a Ghast with sorcerer levels arguably has a more effective incapacitating attack than an Old Master - and those can be as low as 1st level characters.

Along those lines, you raise the issue of skill ranks. Do you want to make these "template-like" so they have the ranks of their casting class?

I'd rather just give it the skill points of its twelve Undead Levels and leave it at that. It just seems simpler, and we don't have to worry about what class it used to be before becoming an "Old Master".

The flavour text says they continue learning after becoming Old Masters, so the extra skill ranks an Undead gets over a sorcerer (due to one being 4 SPs/level and the other 2 SPs/level) could be due to its "undead experience".

I would add something like this:

Spells:
An old master has all the class features of a 6th level spellcaster. Most have the abilities of a sorcerer, but some old masters have the class features of another spellcasting class instead (a 6th level wizard, cleric, druid, et cetera). Old master's advance by class level, and can add these levels to their spellcasting powers. Thus, if the sample old master presented here advanced three levels in sorcerer it would have all the benefits of a 9th level sorcerer.

Skills: An old master's undead levels give it skill points equal to 15 × (2 + Int modifier). its undead level's class skills combine a neogi's racial skills (Appraise, Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Intimidate, Jump, Search, and Spot) plus the skills of whatever class it casts spells as, usually a sorcerer (which would add Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Knowledge (arcana), Profession, and Spellcraft to its undead class skills).

 

[freyar]

Well, I'm OK with CL 6 if you prefer.

I'm ok with the skill like just as a clarification. But don't "Spells" SAs usually stack with the same casting class? I'd rather make them normally as sorcs and then put an underbar about wizardly ones (I'd not expect neogi to produce many divine casters).