Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="rushlight" data-source="post: 987752" data-attributes="member: 3801">&quot;PS use another example. If you can find a CR 25 creature that can't cast spells and can't fly and doesn't have a breath weapon ... etc ... then I'll agree with you (if you use only core rules, of course).&quot;Alright, I hope this puts to bed the whole &quot;but the dragon would...&quot; arguments that were missing the point.&nbsp; I don't know if you consider Monster Manual 2 to be core, but since there are only 3 monsters of CR 25 or more in the MM and they're all dragons, I had to use other WOTC books.&nbsp; BTW, the only reason I used a dragon was to give a stable AC and HP total.&nbsp; I could have (and probably should have, since many people ignored the point and focused on the wrong information) not used any creature and just show that it was possible for a 18th level fighter to do upwards of 1000 points of damage in 3 rounds.So, here's what we'll do.&nbsp; Cleric scrys on a Leviathan.&nbsp; Then he casts freedom of movement, followed by water breathing, and then teleports without error to the Leviathan.&nbsp; Ok, the Leviathian has 496 HPs, and an AC of 22.&nbsp; Using the math above, nearly all 5 swings a round will have a chance to hit, and to crit as well.&nbsp; So it will take 1, and with bad rolling maybe 2 rounds to kill it.&nbsp; Even if the Leviathan uses it's Gulp ability to swallow the fighter, that just means he has no chance to miss (not that he really had one anyway) so that's moot.&nbsp; He might get in a Bite attack, or a few Tail Slaps for for 26 or 44 points of damage respectively.&nbsp; Oooh!&nbsp; Fighter scared!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />On other D20 products: &quot;Sales figures just don't bear that assumption out.&quot;Then why are there so many different companies producing things?&nbsp; Are there that many people producing products no one buys?&nbsp; How are they producing more than one product?&nbsp; What about the larger houses like White Wolf?&nbsp; Didn't the Scarred Lands series do alright?&nbsp; They sure made alot of products for that line.&nbsp; I find it difficult to believe that they were cranking out books that never sold.&nbsp; WW is an established game company which probably knows when to cut it's losses and when something is doing well.On whether some of the rules needed fixing:Yes, they did.&nbsp; Many people believe this, including those designers who worked on the game.&nbsp; There is only a small (but vocal) minority who feel they've been &quot;nerfed&quot;.&nbsp; And considering the use of that word, I don't really mind the changes too much.&nbsp; Better yet, if you don't like the new rules, don't buy them.&nbsp; For those of us who do, we will.&nbsp; It's that simple.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="rushlight, post: 987752, member: 3801"] "PS use another example. If you can find a CR 25 creature that can't cast spells and can't fly and doesn't have a breath weapon ... etc ... then I'll agree with you (if you use only core rules, of course)." Alright, I hope this puts to bed the whole "but the dragon would..." arguments that were missing the point. I don't know if you consider Monster Manual 2 to be core, but since there are only 3 monsters of CR 25 or more in the MM and they're all dragons, I had to use other WOTC books. BTW, the only reason I used a dragon was to give a stable AC and HP total. I could have (and probably should have, since many people ignored the point and focused on the wrong information) not used any creature and just show that it was possible for a 18th level fighter to do upwards of 1000 points of damage in 3 rounds. So, here's what we'll do. Cleric scrys on a Leviathan. Then he casts freedom of movement, followed by water breathing, and then teleports without error to the Leviathan. Ok, the Leviathian has 496 HPs, and an AC of 22. Using the math above, nearly all 5 swings a round will have a chance to hit, and to crit as well. So it will take 1, and with bad rolling maybe 2 rounds to kill it. Even if the Leviathan uses it's Gulp ability to swallow the fighter, that just means he has no chance to miss (not that he really had one anyway) so that's moot. He might get in a Bite attack, or a few Tail Slaps for for 26 or 44 points of damage respectively. Oooh! Fighter scared! :) On other D20 products: "Sales figures just don't bear that assumption out." Then why are there so many different companies producing things? Are there that many people producing products no one buys? How are they producing more than one product? What about the larger houses like White Wolf? Didn't the Scarred Lands series do alright? They sure made alot of products for that line. I find it difficult to believe that they were cranking out books that never sold. WW is an established game company which probably knows when to cut it's losses and when something is doing well. On whether some of the rules needed fixing: Yes, they did. Many people believe this, including those designers who worked on the game. There is only a small (but vocal) minority who feel they've been "nerfed". And considering the use of that word, I don't really mind the changes too much. Better yet, if you don't like the new rules, don't buy them. For those of us who do, we will. It's that simple. [/QUOTE]

Verification