Convince me I'm wrong about reach being overpowered

[Torque]

Along with the rest of my gaming group, I decided to get into D&D miniatures, so that we would have a quick-playing game that would work with only a couple of people and provide a break from regular games. I was hoping for a system that provided a reasonable, scaled-down version of the D&D combat system, so that combats played out similarly, and for it to provide meaningful tactical options and reward intelligent thought. After a few games, my impression is that it does a pretty good job at most of this, but has a major problem with the implementation of giants and other creatures with reach. In every game I've played so far, the player playing Chaotic Evil has won handily (including a game in which my 200 point warband spearheaded by a hill giant defeated three other players without losing a non-summoned piece, so this isn't just sour grapes).

As far as I can tell, this stems from three main simplifications from the D&D system which remove effective ways of dealing with such creatures normally: unlimited attacks of opportunity, the removal of the 5-foot step, and the universal saving throw based on hit dice. These changes nullify the use of expendable or hard-to-hit creatures to soak up AoOs, usage of a 5-foot step to avoid them, and the use of mind-affecting magics on creatures that should have low will saves.

I really want to like the system, but I am hesitant to buy any more if this is how it is going to be. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Am I missing something that balances out what I see as problems? Does anyone use house rules that help balance it out without making giants/ogres underpowered for their point cost?

 

[Cerubus Dark]

As far as I can tell, this stems from three main simplifications from the D&D system which remove effective ways of dealing with such creatures normally: unlimited attacks of opportunity, the removal of the 5-foot step, and the universal saving throw based on hit dice. These changes nullify the use of expendable or hard-to-hit creatures to soak up AoOs, usage of a 5-foot step to avoid them, and the use of mind-affecting magics on creatures that should have low will saves.

I don't think you get unlimted AoO, although I could be wrong (no rule book at work) you should only get 1 AoO in the mini game. Mind-Affecting spells/effects should not work on undead I will re-check my rule book tonight and see what I can come up with.

 

[JimAde]

I don't think you get unlimted AoO, although I could be wrong (no rule book at work) you should only get 1 AoO in the mini game. Mind-Affecting spells/effects should not work on undead I will re-check my rule book tonight and see what I can come up with.

I don't think the problem is undead, it's creatures like Hill Giants that should have a lousy save against mind-affecting magic, but have a great one instead because they have lots of hit dice. So bigger is always better for saves, no matter what.

 

[carpedavid]

Actually, I've found the opposite to be true - Melee Reach is far underpowered compared to how it functions in true 3/3.5 D&D. The main difference between the skirmish system and the normal system, is that a creature with reach does not threaten the entire area that it can reach. It only threatens the squares adjacent to it. Therefore, you can easilly close in on a creature with melee reach without provoking an AoO.

Additionally, Melee Reach has to abide by the rules for counting squares diagonally, so a creature with Melee Reach 2 can only attack one square diagonally (in the normal 3.5 rules, it could attack out to two squares on the diagonal, since reach is an exception to the diagonal measurement rule).

As far as AoO go, in the skirmish rules, creatures do get unlimited AoO (which I learned the hard way ).

 

[Caliban]

Along with the rest of my gaming group, I decided to get into D&D miniatures, so that we would have a quick-playing game that would work with only a couple of people and provide a break from regular games. I was hoping for a system that provided a reasonable, scaled-down version of the D&D combat system, so that combats played out similarly, and for it to provide meaningful tactical options and reward intelligent thought. After a few games, my impression is that it does a pretty good job at most of this, but has a major problem with the implementation of giants and other creatures with reach. In every game I've played so far, the player playing Chaotic Evil has won handily (including a game in which my 200 point warband spearheaded by a hill giant defeated three other players without losing a non-summoned piece, so this isn't just sour grapes).

As far as I can tell, this stems from three main simplifications from the D&D system which remove effective ways of dealing with such creatures normally: unlimited attacks of opportunity, the removal of the 5-foot step, and the universal saving throw based on hit dice. These changes nullify the use of expendable or hard-to-hit creatures to soak up AoOs, usage of a 5-foot step to avoid them, and the use of mind-affecting magics on creatures that should have low will saves.

I really want to like the system, but I am hesitant to buy any more if this is how it is going to be. Has anyone else had similar experiences? Am I missing something that balances out what I see as problems? Does anyone use house rules that help balance it out without making giants/ogres underpowered for their point cost?

You need to keep in mind that creatures with Reach still only threaten at 5', not at their full Reach.

So you never provoke an AoO just for closing with a Reach creature. Reach creatures make AoO's as if they didn't have Reach, in D&D Mini's.

 

[LGodamus]

I have found reach underpowed in minis play as well since you dont provoke attacks of opportunity at the length of the reach only in adjacent squares.

 

[Torque]

The main difference between the skirmish system and the normal system, is that a creature with reach does not threaten the entire area that it can reach. It only threatens the squares adjacent to it. Therefore, you can easilly close in on a creature with melee reach without provoking an AoO.

Ah, that's what I was missing. Somehow none of us noticed that you don't threaten your reach area in the rules when we were getting started. It seems like the game would actually be easier for someone unaccustomed to the RPG rules to learn, because they wouldn't have any preconceptions about the way things work. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[carpedavid]

Ah, that's what I was missing. Somehow none of us noticed that you don't threaten your reach area in the rules when we were getting started. It seems like the game would actually be easier for someone unaccustomed to the RPG rules to learn, because they wouldn't have any preconceptions about the way things work. Thanks for clearing that up.

No problem. I'm still finding differences like that all the time. I'll look something up, turn to the friend I play minis with, and say, "Oh, so *that's* how it works!"

 

[MerricB]

It's one of those changes that make the Skirmish Game quicker to play - when you have multiple creatures with Reach in the RPG, you've always got to pay attention to where their threatened zones are, and with creatures with Reach 3 and similar, things could get very difficult!

Cheers!