Coolest. Gaming Set-up. Evar.

[Steel_Wind]

A 34"x 60" playing surface is a 69" diagonal image. (though at a standard 4:3 image perspective on that table size, your max image is a shade under 60").

For the most part, you need to temper your expectations or get one of a handful of projectors out there with a short throw lens unit.

At a 5'6" measurement from ceiling to surface of the table - you are effectively getting a thow of about 4'8" to 5', depending on your projector's depth and mounting style. That's not a real happy number.

This is a touch less than average for tabletop gaming throw distance at a sit down table. There are real advantages to playing at coffee table height with a projector - and the extra 12"-18" of throw is the main advantage. (You can increase your throw distacne by using indirect projection through a mirror.)

But that's not the main point. My main point is simpler:

When you are playing with a projector, you have to remember that your tabletop map scrolls. When your whole map scrolls digitally in all directions, there generally is no need when depicting a dungeon or cave environment to be projecting beyond a 36"-44" diagonal surface as that is more than sufficient to show the areas of any practical interest to the party. Battle is generally not going to occur at distances greater than 2-3 feet in miniature terms.

Sometimes when fighting outside, you do want the extra space. With most projectors, you aren't going to get this. Please remember that for as often as this occurs (which is infrequently) the rest of your table didn't vanish. It's still there. If you play with a 1" square white grid presentation pad as a projection surface on top of anormal battlemat - you can still easily measure off areas outside the main "projected" zone if need be on the battlemat.

Apart from the technical issue of throw distance to the table (which can be a considerable problem with most projectors) the other issue is one of pixel density. Pixel density issues do not magically go away with a short throw lens.

The larger you make your image, pixel density decreases and the more blurry and less detailed your projected map gets. It also reduces the brightness of your image too. The result is that you start chasing your tail the bigger you make the projected image.

If you re-read the thread, you will see that Jody Johnson bought a Hitachi CP-S225WAT (another comparable option would be the Sony VPL-DS100).

The S225WAT is an older tech using a LCD and SVGA projection for 800x600 resolution. The contrast is low compared to a modern DLP - but it *does* produce a larger image in a short throw.

Jody's setup "damns the torpedoes" and goes for size over sharpness of picture. He also used a small mirror for indirect projection on to his gaming table. His pics are thumbnailed on page 9. His mirror setup is quite ingenious and it gets the job done.

The trade-off with this approach is that when pixel density drops, your image loses detail. For an old skool dungeon map like Jody is showing in his pics - this is not going to be much of an issue. For a NWN or NWN2 map - or one of the more glitzy maps from the new Dungeon Magazine - the image is most definitely not going to be all you want it to be when it's 60" on the diagonal.

That said, it still kicks the crap out of a battlemat or tact-tiles.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Steel Wind, thanks for the quick and detailed reply!

I actually have about 6' 6" (or a bit more) from table surface to ceiling but with the mounting surface (actually mounting a boom type set-up off the top of my kitchen cabinets, which are extended height like the ceilings), I should get a 5' 6" throw. Unfortunately going with a lower table probably isn't an option (ran the numbers and it sure makes a big difference...but would be a tough thing to justify for my main dining room, sadly) as is a mirror.

I'll take another look at the Hitachi CP-S225WAT (and the Sony) as well as Jody's pictures. A majority of our combats are outdoor adventures and we really use our table size to its fullest. It looks like I can either trade off most of our table space for a smaller quality image or keep the space but suffer a projected mat that's of fairly low quality, which might defeat the purpose of going to the projector set-up in the first place, given the cost. Tough call - it very well might be my expectations aren't realistic, based on your advice on page 9.

Thanks again!

 

[DrNilesCrane]

A 34"x 60" playing surface is a 69" diagonal image. (though at a standard 4:3 image perspective on that table size, your max image is a shade under 60").

For the most part, you need to temper your expectations or get one of a handful of projectors out there with a short throw lens unit.

Sorry to double post - it looks like with the 5' 6" from projector lens to table I have to work with, the projectors generate very similiar sized images (from 24" by 32" with the Opotima EP719 to 27" by 36" with the Mitsubishi XO11U). You mentioned a "short throw lens unit" is the way to go - is this an option or attachment, or a classification of projector?

Thanks again, and I hope Dragon accepts your proposal for a buyer's guide!!!

 

[Steel_Wind]

You mentioned a "short throw lens unit" is the way to go - is this an option or attachment, or a classification of projector?

It is a classification of projector. On older units, "short throw lens" were possible add-on attachments - but this harkens back to the days when projectors were pro Audio-Visual equipment and not consumer electronics.

Go here to the projector feature search function at Projector Central: http://www.projectorcentral.com/pro...&wul=any&prll=any&prul=any&an=0&dvi=-1&trig=1

There are a few parameters for you to fill in. You want to search the following fields:

• Resolution. Do a few searches - one at SVGA and another at XGA
• Image Calc: Put "5" in there. That means the issue you are concerned about is the size of the image at 5' throw
• Image Diagonal: Put in a number there between 50 and 60. Try your search with different values. This is the size of the projected image in a diagonal measurement when projecting from the distance you specified under "image calc" (in this case - 5 feet)
• Brightness: Lastly, make sure you are looking for units that are at least 1000 ANSI or brighter.
  
  **Note - I have not included contrast as a search parameter - but this value has a large impact on picture quality as well. Higher the contrast, the better. Modern DLPs are delivering contrast at 2000:1. 500 or lower is going to make you unhappy with picture quality. 300:1 or lower is outside the range of acceptability.
  

Run your searches based on these paratmeters and look at the models returned. These would all be "short throw lens" units.

By way of example, the search for XGA+5feet+60inch+1000ANSI yields only three units - all of them LCD. You don't get to a 60 inch image from those units at that focal length unless the lens is set to maximum zoom - but it is theoretically possible. Note, however, that at maximum zoom your image is dim and will probably look very "washed out".

The same search for a SVGA unit with those specs yields only 2 hits. Ease off on the diagonal range and drop it to 50 - you get more hits. Seeing as you have an extra 6" on the throw distance (you said 5'6") you can make up a bit more size playing with the sliders on the projection calculations to boost your image size.

Play with your search parameters on the diagonal size and look at the way the zoom is coming into play to give you your desired projection size. In general, you don't want to push the zoom much past one half its maximum.

I really do think that your desired goal of 60" at this throw range needs adjustment. The biggest issue, however, is pixel density. If you increase to XGA resolution over SVGA - you will substantially increase picture quality as the pixel density goes up. As you can see, however, this does come at a higher price.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Thanks again! I've been experimenting with projectorcentral most of the day and coming up with about the same conclusions: to really go with this solution, I need to seriously lower my goals/expectations in regard to the size of the image.

There's definitely a lot to consider & thanks again for your help!!!

 

[DrNilesCrane]

Steel Wind,

Boy, this is becoming an obession! OK, what do you think about a BenQ PB6240? I'd probably use it zoomed (looks like I can get a 28" by 37" image at half zoom), which would work well enough with a whiteboard background for any characters that skitter off the image during a fight. It's XGA, 2700 lumens, and 2000:1 contrast. I'd just be using it for gaming. The price is reasonable ($1199 with rebate and free extra lamp).

Am I missing anything? Is there a better model out there I should look at? The Mitsubishi XD110 gives me a slightly larger image, but at less lumens plus no free extra lamp.

Almost...ready...to...give...it...a...try...!


EDIT: Spellin' stuff purdy is good.

 

[Steel_Wind]

6240?

Excellent projector. Now you're being reasonable Fine choice, excellent specs - great for movies too.

$1199 plus a free lamp? Booyeah. Buy it with a smile.

Better projector? Probably there is. For the price? Not really - for a new one, that's about as good as it gets. (Check Dell for any current specials though).

BenQ have a good chunk of the emerging consumer/computer market. A lot of these are being sold in local computer stores here in Toronto. Large installed base means lots of bulbs in the future for those too.

BTW - run it in econo mode. 2700 ANSI is ass kickingly bright and may even wash out depending on your projection surface. Compared to many of the rigs on ebay - that's a nice problem to have

Note - this is very similar to the 6210. A few ENworlders have picked up the 6210 for gaming and all were extremely pleased to date. You might want to check earlier on the thread and mail the guys who got the 6210 for their opinions of it.

 

[DrNilesCrane]

6240?

Excellent projector. Now you're being reasonable Fine choice, excellent specs - great for movies too.

$1199 plus a free lamp? Booyeah. Buy it with a smile.

Better projector? Probably there is. For the price? Not really - for a new one, that's about as good as it gets. (Check Dell for any current specials though).

BenQ have a good chunk of the emerging consumer/computer market. A lot of these are being sold in local computer stores here in Toronto. Large installed base means lots of bulbs in the future for those too.

BTW - run it in econo mode. 2700 ANSI is ass kickingly bright and may even wash out depending on your projection surface. Compared to many of the rigs on ebay - that's a nice problem to have

Note - this is very similar to the 6210. A few ENworlders have picked up the 6210 for gaming and all were extremely pleased to date. You might want to check earlier on the thread and mail the guys who got the 6210 for their opinions of it.

Thanks again - I'll probably end up getting a laptop as well so will definitely check out Dell. With 10 days off for x-mas and New Year's, my hope is to order and install then to give myself plenty of time to experiment with the beast before our campaign kick off in January.

Thanks!!!

 

[Blakey]

Wifi Option for BenQ

When I bought my BenQ PB6210 I was surprised to see in the manual that it was compatible with the "BenQ Wireless Pro" option. I wondered what that was and struggled to find much about it on the internet. Anyway, it has finally been released - even if only in Canada so far. Here's a link: http://www.bytewizecomputers.com/products/7/71/665/8421

I am seriously thinking of buying this and fitting it to my projector (set up shown here: http://www.rodinia.info/GamesRoom/index.htm).

At the moment I use a tablet pc to DM at the table. This is miles more portable than a laptop. The battery lasts ages (and I have a spare battery so I change the battery once during a standard session - which takes about 30 seconds if that), so I don't need to run it off the mains. Before the projector came along I didn't have any wires attached to my tablet at all. Now I have a VGA cable running from it to the projector. It does make me feel like my movement is restricted loads more than it was.

Seeing as all I display onto the whiteboard is still pictures - maps basically - I can't see any reason why a Wifi connection shouldn't do the trick. Can anyone else? I'm not looking to display stunning movies or anything.

Anyone got any comments on this trinket?

Thanks
Blakey

 

[jodyjohnson]

I'd still go with size over detail.

Steel Wind is more of a computer programmer/artist so I understand his desire for quality image. We don't put that detail on our maps (actually one DM uses Campaign Cartographer and XGA would be a waste for that type of map).

NWN is also one of the darkest platforms to project a map from. I have a hard time seeing the NWN maps on a monitor. OTOH NWN also has the best potential for animated elements but that's not something I worry about.

I'm a video professional so my main concerns were finding a projector that fit this particular application (plus being cheap). Our projector would make a crappy home theatre projector (that's why it was on ebay) but it is perfect for our application (large image, short throw, moderate brightness). The gaming concerns were the cost, overall look, and speed of play (larger map = less map resets).

1. Be careful not to go too bright. Most of these projectors and their reviews are based on home theatre applications. They aren't intended to do images from 5' away with a 3'-6' viewing distance.

Most of the newer ones are too bright and you'll have eye strain viewing them from 3' to 6' away. If the room goes dim when you turn off your projector with normal room lighting, it's too bright.

Our projector was too bright at minimum zoom so we zoomed all the way out plus put it on econo-mode just to get the brightness down to a comfortable level (we also use matte board as our surface with a reflectivity of .8 or lower).

2. Contrast - the biggest variable here is in the source video. NWN has poor contrast for this particular application. That's why we use a photo editor so we can adjust the contrast specifically for projection (+30%).

Normal room lighting washes out the blacks so you want most of your map towards the lighter end rather than the dark end. 500:1 is more than enough contrast from your projector.