Cooperative Scribe scroll

[Hypersmurf]

If a divine caster (say, a cleric) with high enough Use Magic Device skill activate an arcane scroll, does he still suffer arcane spell failure chance? The DMG P.238 says "Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance (such as armor)". But if a cleric is activating a scroll "as if he had that spell on his class spell list", is is still an arcane spell?

Tricky question.

What if it's a rogue?

I think the only way it can make sense is if arcane failure applies to arcane scrolls, and not to divine scrolls... since some people who could use a scroll with UMD are neither arcane nor divine casters themselves.

-Hyp.

 

[TheGogmagog]

My thinking was with UltimaGabe, that the one with the feat was always the creator. I see that's not the case. Is that a change from 3.0 to 3.5?
Hyp's quotes can be found on DMG p 215.

"Prerequisites: Feats, spells, and miscellaneous such as level, alignment, race or kind."
"Prerequisites are listed AFTER the items caster level." (emphasis mine)
Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one ore more spells (or some other requirement

Is caster level a prerequisite or not? If I recall Skip said it was not (intended to be) but Customer Service said it was. These were the rulings from memory so i might be wrong, or might have been part of 3.0 discussions. Are there any examples of the caster level requirement being listed after the items caster level?

"It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites."DMG p215.
So, each participant must? provide a prerequisite? So an elven fighter, could participate offering the elven prerequisite for the Boots of Elvenkind (along with a human caster of level 5 with the craft wonderous items feat). But the elven fighter could not participate in the creation of Boots of Levitation.

"If two or more characters" (not casters?) "cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known. (...) The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item."

Continuing the above example, the elven fighter could be the creator and donor of the XP for the Boots of Elvenkind, but not for the Boots of Levitation.

Personally, I house rule that anyone can contribute XP (consider XP as a prerequisite if you will). When people are tricked or coerced into contibuting the XP... that's where cused items come from.

 

[TheGogmagog]

There is one post from hyper I don't see support for or agree with. I notice there arn't quotes so I was this opinion or RAW?

Remember, though, that Caster Level, XP, and the arcane/divine nature of a scroll all come from 'the creator'.

If the Wizard spends the XP, the caster level of the scroll or wand cannot be higher than his caster level, and a scroll will be arcane. (This leads to a wizard and a cleric cooperating to produce a scroll of CLW that only a Bard can use.)

If the Cleric spends the XP, the caster level of the scroll or wand cannot be higher than his caster level, and a scroll will be divine.

I can't find any support for the caster level coming from the creator or any restriction from the creator level on the caster level. Creator level "for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known" but the caster level seems fixed by item description. The creator's level seems to be a rarely used property used in events like disjunction maybe or something equally rare.

I also find no support for the arcane/divine determination being made by 'the creator'. As mentioned above, I would assume arcane/divine would be determined by who provided the spell prerequisite.

Could you provide a reference?

 

[dcollins]

My thinking was with UltimaGabe, that the one with the feat was always the creator. I see that's not the case. Is that a change from 3.0 to 3.5?

Not a change. All the rules about this discussion are unchanged from 3.5.

I can't find any support for the caster level coming from the creator or any restriction from the creator level on the caster level.... I also find no support for the arcane/divine determination being made by 'the creator'.

- From DMG, "Magic Item Descriptions: Prerequisites" -- "If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known."

- From DMG, "Scrolls: Activation" -- "The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class. For example, clerics create scrolls of divine spells, wizards create scrolls of arcane spells, and so forth."

 

[Hypersmurf]

I can't find any support for the caster level coming from the creator or any restriction from the creator level on the caster level. Creator level "for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known" but the caster level seems fixed by item description. The creator's level seems to be a rarely used property used in events like disjunction maybe or something equally rare.

DMG Errata:
Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The caster level is determined by the creator. So if the elven fighter provides the prerequisite "The creator must be an elf", then the item must also use the elven fighter's caster level - which he doesn't have.

Of course, for Scrolls and Wands - the point of this thread - it's entirely unambiguous.

"For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level."

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Of course, potion/scroll/wand caster levels are clearly set by decision of the creator. The poorly-thought-out 3.5 DMG errata expanding that to all types of items is unneccessary for that issue.