Core Class Modification

[vulcan_idic]

Hello all,
I would greatly appreciate how to create a decently balanced class along the concept of a natural holy hermit. The concept is mostly a Monk concept but with a weakened Wild shape put in. Gradually increasing in sizes of animals available and limited to animals (and animals only - if its observable in the wild/zoos in the modern world it is acceptable - including snakes and vermin, size and hit die permitting) and limited to 1/4 to 1/2 Creatures HD as compared to the class level (the character in my interpretation would retain their own hit die which would be unaltered, but the HD limitation serves to limit creature power). What are good alternatives of things from the monk class to edit out in order to add the above in as a class ability? I'd like to have multiple options for this to make it something along the lines of the ranger weapon choice or the existing monk style choice - i.e. as you advance you can choose the animal path, the speed path, the defense path, etc. I look forward to hearing what you folks think. I mostly invision this being used as an infiltration/stealth style ability, but I want to limit it's abuse in unforseen ways. Thanks for the thoughts!

 

[Jdvn1]

There are some prestige classes that do things similar. The Bear Warrior from Complete Warrior is the only one that comes to mind at the moment... I know there's another one where you can chose between animals, but I forget the name at the moment. You could use the Bear Warrior and werecreatures as sources for ideas, though.

 

[vulcan_idic]

I may indeed look at that... but specifically regarding Monk class abilities what would be fair to have them give up in exchaged for the proposed ability as described? Or options of things to give up (you may give up (X or Y) in exchage for Z) in exchange for the proposed ability as described above?

 

[vulcan_idic]

Wow, no other suggestions? I'm really surprised!!

 

[Aus_Snow]

You could do a straight swap of Perform and Knowledge (arcana) for Survival and Knowledge (nature), if that suits. The rest of the class skills would seem to me quite OK as is.

Also, how about WIld Empathy, and some other non-Wild Shape stuff, for adding into the mix? Personally, I think the class needs more than just Monk + 'lesser Wild Shape' to be distinct and well-founded enough.

If you could reveal the source(s) that inspired the concept (if any), and let me (and others?) know which Monk abilities you don't want to let go of, I might be able to think of something useful.

 

[vulcan_idic]

Well the monk had it pretty close, which is why I just wanted to do a swap. The concept is basically a natural hermit monk concept. A monk who shapeshifts to explore his world and learn to see the world through many different eyes, "walking a mile in their shoes" so to speak. He also finds the ability useful to spy on enemy camps - few notice a canary, or cat, or rat, or something going through camp. He uses this to find out who means ill to the wood and learn where best to place himself, a twig, to turn the attack, a flood. I wasn't really thinking of it as a separate class as much as different flavor of the base class. More like Mandarin Oranges and Seeded Oranges rather than something along the lines of a Tangelo, although it seems to be moving that direction.

 

[Nyaricus]

well, since no-one has bothered to post any concrete idea, you have interested me and my overly-tired mind to try my hand at making at least an outline for your idea.

First off, in the DMG, you might have noted that, in the Character chapter, it says to the effect that "if you are to make a classes varient that fights better than a fighter, is stealthier than a rogue, etc, you have failed in making a balanced class varient" so, your idea of having a monk+lesser shaping abilities doesnt seem to "fit the bill" all too well (its too powerful all together). Also take in mind that the Monk in the PHB is a shaolin-based monk, so weapons adn some abilites are decidedly "oriental" in the feel of it all. If you are okay with that, you could look over the details, but if you are going for a more "European" style (frankly, i dont understand why the monk class is even included in the PHB, other than an ingrained thought of mine that it ninja-jumped from the OA book to the PHB) of woodland holyman/hermit, then making an original class would probably be a better idea. Perhaps, you might also consider making this a prestige class, so that you could still haev the monk/druid flavour that you mentioned before.

Just before the "main course" as it is (my idea of a Holy Hermit, from the suggestions posted), consider the attributes of the implicatiosn of a hermit who has many ties in with nature and some stealthy wild-shapeness to boot.

-he is a hermit, and the definiton of a hermit is "one retired from society for religious reasons " (thank you dictionary.com) so, as for saves, he will have good Will. He would also, in your interpretation, be in the wilderness and all, so a good Fort will help him battle all that nasty poison-ivy he finds out there. As for Reflex saves, its kinda a coin toss. you mention you have stealth in mind, so, yeah, good dex is a must for avoiding detection, but is the good Ref save nessisary? (whoa, sorry bout sp.) he is supposed to be sneaky, so the question is: would he need to be dodging that Great Wyrms' blast of flaming fury, or would he avoid it? i say dont be greed adn have Good Fort and Will only. But thats me.

-on the matter of BAB > okay, go for the 3/4 HD (as rogue) for it. you are not a powerhouse of natures' rage, nore are you a little wabbit; you are respectable, but not overwheleing in combat.

-okay, personally, i dont like the idea of the monk abilities being included in their whole here. flurry of blows? quivering palm? empty body? it honestly doesnt sound like any hermits special abilities/powers that i have ever heard of. Besides, i dont think that flurry of blows, slow, etc would work well in/at all in wild shape, so youd kinda be making a character that would have too many loose-ends and pwoers that he could use all at once (think a wizard/fighter gestault character [from Unearthed Arcana]. You can fight really well, and cast spells really well, but you cant do both at once, so whats the point?)
anyways, even if you were to re-name all the abilities, it wouldnt give the class the right feel. Monk Abilities that are appropriate for a Holy Hermit would be: monks AC bonus ( how many hermits u seen wearing full-plate??), Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Timeless body, Tongue of the Sun and the Moon (perhaps usable with animals only/magical beasts at a penalty or later level) also, grab some appropriate abilities from other classes: Animal Companion (as a ranger) is probably the most blatant (he loves his furry friends, i mean, he doesnt like society, so who is he gonna talk to and gain his oddball, hermitty reputation?) the Nature Sense ability, Resist Natures Lure, Trackless step, and Wild Shape (limited, as you suggested)are all really good canidates. The stealth element can be helped with the Ranger abilities Camoflauge and Hide in Plain Sight abilities. (consider that the ranger gains access to Hide in Plain Sight at level 17, and yet the shadow dancer prestigue class gives you it at ELC 8 [ie level 7 rogue with pre-reqs takes level one in Shadow Dancer, and gets Hide in Plain Site] so you could easily introduce that element into gameplay early [at level 8 or just a bit later, camoflauge earlier]), without upsetting the balance too much. And also, those can be used in Wild Shape!!

-to spell or not to spell? well, think about it for a second. you are thinking holy man? nothing is holier than being able to cast a few spells directly from your nature-god. but you are not an in-your-face spell caster. you are subtle. Go with the Ranger Spells per day, and as for specific spells, either use the rangers list, or swap some to yours needs. personally, i am ot going through a 1/3 of the PHB to make a custom spell list st this time, so good luck with that. Just remember: Subtle!

anyways!!! onwards to the main course!!

THE HOLY HERMIT class

HD = d8
BAB = 3/4 HD (as rogue)
FORT and WILL good, REF bad
Spells Per Day -as Ranger
Spells - as Ranger
Monks AC bonus (incl. Wis mod to AC)
Class Skills: Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist (?maybe?), Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim, Use Rope
Skill Points at First Level (6+INT Mod) x4, after 1st 6+INT Mod

Weapon And Armour Prof: All Simple Weapons, no armour or shields

1 Nature Sense (as Druid), Wild Empathy (as Druid)
2
3 Track feat
4 Animal Companion (as Ranger) Trackless Step (as Druid)
5 Wild Shape 1/day, Medium only
6 Purity of Body (Disease immunity)
7 Wild Shape 2/day, Small Size, Large Size
8 Camouflage (as Ranger) Tongues of the Stones and Trees (speak with any animal)
9
10 Wild Shape 3/day, Tiny Size
11 Purity of Body (poison immunity)
12 Hide in Plain Sight (as Ranger)
13 Hearty Soul (as the Diamond Soul Monk Ability)
14 Wild Shape 4/day Improved Tongues of the Stones and Trees (speak with any animal or magical Beast)
15
16 Timeless Body (as Monk)
17
18 Greater Tongues of the Stones and Trees (speak with any creature of the Material Plane)
19 Wild Shape 5/day
20

so, you can Wild Shape and cast spells, both of which are less powerful than the PHB druids Abilities of the same name (an unusable at the same time, so theres balance) you get a few cool non-cambat specific qualities (Purity of Body group, and the Tongues group, Hearty Body, Timeless body), some stealth/lurker abilities (the bonus Track feat, Trackless Step, Camouflage, Hide in Plain Sight) and an animal companion. Overall, I'd say pretty balanced

also, if class balance permits, consider spontaenous Summon spells (although the few spells that he does have may be indispensible)

-Nyaricus

 

[Drowbane]

A fairly recent Dragon Issue (in the last year or so.. ) had a Variant Monk with a Limited Wildshape at lvl 5... I remember wanting to try one out with some of those Wild Feats... and have a Monk who can burn a WS to do a Pounce

I'll see if I can find which Dragon it was in later...

 

[Nyaricus]

A fairly recent Dragon Issue (in the last year or so.. ) had a Variant Monk with a Limited Wildshape at lvl 5... I remember wanting to try one out with some of those Wild Feats... and have a Monk who can burn a WS to do a Pounce

I'll see if I can find which Dragon it was in later...

that would be interesting to see! also, Unearthed Arcana had, in the Class chapter, guidlines for the swapping of class features, and it might have had a monk/druid. Maybe, since its a recent publication, its just a revision to the Dragon article you speak of. Either way, i dont think that the monk "does what it says" in the PHB, i mean, sure, everyone wants to be pure of mind, soul and body blah blah blah, but the PHB monk is, essentually, a shaolin monk who has considerable fighting skills and a couple of cool abilities. So the idea of a holy hermit using it (the monk class) as a basis doesnt really work, if taken literally; other than the purity aspect of it all.

anywho, comment on what you all think of my class idea (and note, it created that at 5 to 7 in the morning on a whim )

-Nyaricus

 

[Ace]

Hello all,
I would greatly appreciate how to create a decently balanced class along the concept of a natural holy hermit. The concept is mostly a Monk concept but with a weakened Wild shape put in. Gradually increasing in sizes of animals available and limited to animals (and animals only - if its observable in the wild/zoos in the modern world it is acceptable - including snakes and vermin, size and hit die permitting) and limited to 1/4 to 1/2 Creatures HD as compared to the class level (the character in my interpretation would retain their own hit die which would be unaltered, but the HD limitation serves to limit creature power). What are good alternatives of things from the monk class to edit out in order to add the above in as a class ability? I'd like to have multiple options for this to make it something along the lines of the ranger weapon choice or the existing monk style choice - i.e. as you advance you can choose the animal path, the speed path, the defense path, etc. I look forward to hearing what you folks think. I mostly invision this being used as an infiltration/stealth style ability, but I want to limit it's abuse in unforseen ways. Thanks for the thoughts!

Go here http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.html and download the class files PDF. There is a shapechanging monk varient listed there. That variant should work just fine for what you want