Core Rules Survivor: FINAL ROUND!

[eamon]

I had to go with the choice that has never reared its head in one of my games: the whip/chain stuff. When equipment has its own attached rules, and draws everything down into its black hole of Suck, well, you get my vote.

The other rules aren't bad enough that I steer around them. hell, I've even used counterspelling.

I don't get it. I've had players that have used spiked chains, and when I was a player I had a character once that used one. It's a pretty decent strategy, and is also nice because it keeps the melee dude a little busy and he has a few options unlike the spellcaster which always has enough choices.

Why the hate? what own attached rules? It's not that complex is it? It's just a reach weapon, and trip (trip is SOO easy compared to grapple), and prone (which is usually no more than a -4 to attack and AC, and +4 to ranged AC). I actually _like_ these chains, because they make tripping actually attractive, and distract from horrors like grappling :-D. Some people find balance issues, but I've never noticed that to be that bad.

 

[Mistwell]

It's too powerful. I could spend the time convincing you, but if you just turn to the Hunter of the Dead PrC (CW, I think), they get a similar mechanic. Note that this requires entering a PrC w/ crappy spellcasting and by default means you don't even get access to the ability till mid levels. Further, note how the CD variant still manages to be outright better.

It's bad because a bad PRC that virtually nobody plays also uses something similar?

I think the idea of turn resistance subtracting dice rather than individual hit points from the damage total is fair. However, I have not found it too powerful in play (provided you remember the save for half damage).

 

[eamon]

Ah, but I hate MDS so much more than anything that remains--I use all of the remaining mechanics with no problem, but I (and others I know) generally remove MDS immediately as a default. I think if you tried to pull an MDS on most people I know, they would actually be surprised, despite the fact that it's in the core rules.

But that's also why it's harmless. It has no impact on the rest of the game - I house rule it out, as does everyone... but the game just basically stays perfectly fine. No weird side effects! So it's not a problematic rule, because it's so easily worked around. If MDS is a cancer, it's a superficial and relatively benign one.

That's unlike, for instance grappling. You can't just remove grappling without completely rewriting a large number of monsters, and some other mechanics which use the grappling mechanic. This ****'s metastasized.

Counterspelling is bad not because you can't just pull it out, but because you really lose something when you do - namely the interesting, heroic fantasy idea of the spell-duel, one which stresses the defensive nature of spellcasters too.

Maybe if readying a counterspell were a swift action it would be balanced? That way you could cast a spell and ready a counter each round.... Hmmm....

 

[Rystil Arden]

But that's also why it's harmless. It has no impact on the rest of the game - I house rule it out, as does everyone... but the game just basically stays perfectly fine. No weird side effects! So it's not a problematic rule, because it's so easily worked around. If MDS is a cancer, it's a superficial and relatively benign one.

That's unlike, for instance grappling. You can't just remove grappling without completely rewriting a large number of monsters, and some other mechanics which use the grappling mechanic. This ****'s metastasized.

Counterspelling is bad not because you can't just pull it out, but because you really lose something when you do - namely the interesting, heroic fantasy idea of the spell-duel, one which stresses the defensive nature of spellcasters too.

Maybe if readying a counterspell were a swift action it would be balanced? That way you could cast a spell and ready a counter each round.... Hmmm....

There's a feat similar to that called Reactive Counterspell. You have to sacrifice your next round's standard action to make it fair (otherwise everyone could just counterspell every round), but it can still be devastating if you pair it with Mastery of Counterspelling, the Archmage ability.

 

[Cameron]

I don't get it. I've had players that have used spiked chains, and when I was a player I had a character once that used one. It's a pretty decent strategy, and is also nice because it keeps the melee dude a little busy and he has a few options unlike the spellcaster which always has enough choices.

Why the hate? what own attached rules? It's not that complex is it? It's just a reach weapon, and trip (trip is SOO easy compared to grapple), and prone (which is usually no more than a -4 to attack and AC, and +4 to ranged AC). I actually _like_ these chains, because they make tripping actually attractive, and distract from horrors like grappling :-D. Some people find balance issues, but I've never noticed that to be that bad.

Most people don't like it because it allows an aoo on a monster on the way in and also it allows you to threaten right next to you. That is overpowered, apparently *shrugs*

 

[eamon]

Most people don't like it because it allows an aoo on a monster on the way in and also it allows you to threaten right next to you. That is overpowered, apparently *shrugs*

Well, I've had that happen quite a bit, and if that's it, it's not a problem. Sure, it takes out certain opponents rather quickly, but then... so do other things. And many opponents have enough reach to avoid the AoO from the chain-fighter. And generally, the chain fighter will occasionally be counter tripped, which is quite nasty. Even a large fighter with improved trip and 22 str has only a +14 trip modifier, which means a halfling with 8 str has a (minuscule) chance of counter-tripping. In actual combat it certainly happens anyhow. In any case, it's powerful but not game breaking next to a wild-shaping druid, duskblades, beguilers, marshals, arcane casters, clerics.... and all those powerful things ;-)

 

[eamon]

There's a feat similar to that called Reactive Counterspell. You have to sacrifice your next round's standard action to make it fair (otherwise everyone could just counterspell every round), but it can still be devastating if you pair it with Mastery of Counterspelling, the Archmage ability.

What's mastery of counterspelling do?

And I don't think "free counterspelling" is a problem if everyone can do it every round. I mean, it doesn't effect non-casters, so it's purely a balance thing internal to the casters. If at all it means casters become easier to counter and thus less effective.

 

[Rystil Arden]

What's mastery of counterspelling do?

And I don't think "free counterspelling" is a problem if everyone can do it every round. I mean, it doesn't effect non-casters, so it's purely a balance thing internal to the casters. If at all it means casters become easier to counter and thus less effective.

It's in the DMG. It lets you reflect back the counterspelled spell at the caster. As for free counterspelling, trust me, it would not be fair. If I can build an effective counterspelling enemy build now, I don't want to imagine what it would be like if it was free every round. But just to get an idea--imagine that you are a PC caster. In addition to getting off all her own spells unless you have something prepared to counterspell her, the caster BBEG also counterspells every one of your spells, which optionally backfire and hit you. Are you going to be having much fun playing in that sort of game? I wouldn't.