Necrohazard
First Post
Core Rules Turning Undead Vs. Complete Divine Variant Turn Undead (Pg 87)
A question of balance if one was to replace the core rulings with the CD Variant
(This Cleric is used for Core and Variant, examples below unless stated otherwise)
1st-level Cleric (Cha 12 +1 mod.) Can "Turn Undead" 5/day
An overview of the two Turn Undead Rules;
Range
Core: 60' radius burst
Variant: 30' radius burst
Turning Check
Core: Random, got it or you don't by a -4 or +4 once everything is factored, this tells you the max HD undead you can even hope to think about turning.
Lowest Roll: (3) able to turn undead of -3HD, one turn attempt wasted for the day;
Average Roll: (13) able to turn undead of 2HD or less;
Highest roll: (22) able to turn undead of 5HD or less;
(1d20 + Cha. mod., then compare that number with the "Turn Undead" Table)
Variant: There is no HD limitations, so no check needed;
Turning Damage
Core: Roll to see how many HD of undead that can be turned, this is the total amount that the cleric can use to turn any undead within a 60' radius burst.
Lowest Roll: 05HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Average Roll: 10HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Highest Roll: 15HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Variant: The cleric deals 1d6/cleric level (or effective cleric levels) to all undead within a 30' radius burst of the cleric. The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + Cleric Level + Cha. Mod.) for half damage. So with this system the cleric is burning away Hit Points not HD of the undead and it also does not force the undead to flee or cower away from the cleric.
Lowest Roll: 1hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
Average Roll: 4hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
Highest Roll: 6hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
(Those undead with "turn resistance" may subtract that number from the damage that they take from each turn attempt)
Destroying Undead
Core: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Must do anough turning damage to drop the undeads too 0hp or less.
(1-A, Example)
A group of 4 1st-level heros find themselves confronted by (3) "human skeleton warriors"
1st-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can "Turn Undead" 5/day
Turn Check
Core: Low Roll (-2HD), Average Roll (1HD), High Roll (4);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (4HD), Average Roll 9HD), High Roll (14HD);
(If the clerics "Turn Check" is not wasted he can turn the [1HD] undead without problem)
Variant: Low Roll (1 dmg), Average Roll (4 dmg), High Roll (6 dmg);
(Damage is done to all undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 12) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: High Roll (6 dmg), destroyed if the undeads Will save has failed.
The average "human skeleton warrior" has (6hp) each; Although the cleric is unable to destroy any of the undead with an low or average roll, the cleric may still manage to damage any undead within the 30' radius burst.
(1-B, Example)
A group of four 2nd-level heros find themselves confronted by (3) “human skeleton warriors.”
Example Cleric: 2nd-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 5/day”
Turn Check
Core: Low Roll (-1HD, wasted), Average Roll (2HD, turned) , High Roll (5HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (5HD), Average Roll (10HD), High Roll (15HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant: Low Roll (2 dmg), Average Roll (7 dmg), High Roll (12 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 13) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: All rolls would destroy multiple 1HD undead;
Variant: Low Roll (2 dmg), Average Roll (7 dmg, Destroyed), High Roll (12 dmg, Destroyed) if Will save failed;
(The average “human skeleton warrior” has (6hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy any with a low roll, the cleric can still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
(2-A, Example: Undead with Toughness Feat)
A group of four 5th-level heros find themselves confronted by (1) “mummy.”
Example Cleric: 5th-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 6/day”
Turn Check
Core : Low Roll (2HD, wasted), Average Roll (5HD, turned) , High Roll (8HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (8HD), Average Roll (13HD), High Roll (18HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant: Low Roll (5 dmg), Average Roll (18 dmg), High Roll (30 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 16) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core : If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Only Dmg.;
(The average “mummy” has (55hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy it, the cleric has still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
(2-B Example: Undead with Toughness Feat)
A group of four 16th-level heros find themselves confronted by (1) “mummy.”
Example Cleric: 16th-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 9/day”
Turn Check
Core: : Low Roll (13HD, turned), Average Roll (16HD, turned) , High Roll (19HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (19HD), Average Roll (24HD), High Roll (29HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant Turning Damage: Low Roll (16 dmg), Average Roll (56 dmg), High Roll (96 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 27) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: All rolls would destroy multiple 8HD undead; If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Average Roll 56 (Destroyed), High Roll (96 dmg, Destroyed) if Will save failed;
(The average “mummy” has (55hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy it with the low roll, the cleric has still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
I like the fact that the system is quick and easy;
That the cleric can actually hurt undead by turning them well before being able to destroy them, thereby helping the martial types out even more;
Speaking of destroying undead, I like the fact that once the cleric has twice the level that an undead has that it does not mean that the undead is just fine dust without really any chance of surviving, although by the time a cleric using the variant system is at that level of power it seems to lend itself to the undeads destruction;
Example: 20th level Cleric turns 10HD undead, on average the undead has 65hp not counting any feats that may boost that, the average turn would do 70dmg.
I also like how it makes some feats even more valuable to the undead like “Toughness,” or undead abilities like “Turn Resistance,” as examples.
I don’t like how it makes some feats for clerics or some PrC abilities about worthless, or totally worthless to take , although one could always revamp them to make them work with the new system.
PrC, Example Ability: Positive Energy Burst (Su), This ability enables you to turn undead, almost exactly like the variant rules do, with very miner changes and costing the cleric twice the amount of turning attempts do pull it off with.
Feat, Example: Disciple of the Sun [Divine]: This feat lets you destroy undead that you can normally just turn with the cost of two turning attempts as above. Well it don’t sound to bad but once you take into account that the variant don’t use the (Turning Check) to keep it all in its place, well you can see the problem.
Im not even really worried about all this I can always look them over and see what would work for balance and within the variant system to bring back them back into the fold, sure they may not look quite like they did but if they work and are in balance then I will be happy with them, keep the spirit of them and they should turn out good.
The only other thing that I can think of at the time that I may not like is the fact that there is no Max HD limit to turn an undead. Mostly because I do like the idea of the great hero bringing up said holy symbol to have the powerful undead “X” just laugh it off as if it was the most funny thing he has seen in a long time. I don’t want it quite like the roll on the chart and such but I do have at least two ideas about it that I should jot down someplace before I loose them.
So everyone what do you believe about it being balanced and such and would you even think of puting such a variation in your own campaign?
A question of balance if one was to replace the core rulings with the CD Variant
(This Cleric is used for Core and Variant, examples below unless stated otherwise)
1st-level Cleric (Cha 12 +1 mod.) Can "Turn Undead" 5/day
An overview of the two Turn Undead Rules;
Range
Core: 60' radius burst
Variant: 30' radius burst
Turning Check
Core: Random, got it or you don't by a -4 or +4 once everything is factored, this tells you the max HD undead you can even hope to think about turning.
Lowest Roll: (3) able to turn undead of -3HD, one turn attempt wasted for the day;
Average Roll: (13) able to turn undead of 2HD or less;
Highest roll: (22) able to turn undead of 5HD or less;
(1d20 + Cha. mod., then compare that number with the "Turn Undead" Table)
Variant: There is no HD limitations, so no check needed;
Turning Damage
Core: Roll to see how many HD of undead that can be turned, this is the total amount that the cleric can use to turn any undead within a 60' radius burst.
Lowest Roll: 05HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Average Roll: 10HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Highest Roll: 15HD worth of damage within 60' radius of cleric;
Variant: The cleric deals 1d6/cleric level (or effective cleric levels) to all undead within a 30' radius burst of the cleric. The affected undead get a Will save (DC 10 + Cleric Level + Cha. Mod.) for half damage. So with this system the cleric is burning away Hit Points not HD of the undead and it also does not force the undead to flee or cower away from the cleric.
Lowest Roll: 1hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
Average Roll: 4hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
Highest Roll: 6hp of dmg., to all undead within a 30' radius of the cleric;
(Those undead with "turn resistance" may subtract that number from the damage that they take from each turn attempt)
Destroying Undead
Core: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Must do anough turning damage to drop the undeads too 0hp or less.
(1-A, Example)
A group of 4 1st-level heros find themselves confronted by (3) "human skeleton warriors"
1st-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can "Turn Undead" 5/day
Turn Check
Core: Low Roll (-2HD), Average Roll (1HD), High Roll (4);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (4HD), Average Roll 9HD), High Roll (14HD);
(If the clerics "Turn Check" is not wasted he can turn the [1HD] undead without problem)
Variant: Low Roll (1 dmg), Average Roll (4 dmg), High Roll (6 dmg);
(Damage is done to all undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 12) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: High Roll (6 dmg), destroyed if the undeads Will save has failed.
The average "human skeleton warrior" has (6hp) each; Although the cleric is unable to destroy any of the undead with an low or average roll, the cleric may still manage to damage any undead within the 30' radius burst.
(1-B, Example)
A group of four 2nd-level heros find themselves confronted by (3) “human skeleton warriors.”
Example Cleric: 2nd-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 5/day”
Turn Check
Core: Low Roll (-1HD, wasted), Average Roll (2HD, turned) , High Roll (5HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (5HD), Average Roll (10HD), High Roll (15HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant: Low Roll (2 dmg), Average Roll (7 dmg), High Roll (12 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 13) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: All rolls would destroy multiple 1HD undead;
Variant: Low Roll (2 dmg), Average Roll (7 dmg, Destroyed), High Roll (12 dmg, Destroyed) if Will save failed;
(The average “human skeleton warrior” has (6hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy any with a low roll, the cleric can still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
(2-A, Example: Undead with Toughness Feat)
A group of four 5th-level heros find themselves confronted by (1) “mummy.”
Example Cleric: 5th-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 6/day”
Turn Check
Core : Low Roll (2HD, wasted), Average Roll (5HD, turned) , High Roll (8HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (8HD), Average Roll (13HD), High Roll (18HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant: Low Roll (5 dmg), Average Roll (18 dmg), High Roll (30 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 16) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core : If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Only Dmg.;
(The average “mummy” has (55hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy it, the cleric has still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
(2-B Example: Undead with Toughness Feat)
A group of four 16th-level heros find themselves confronted by (1) “mummy.”
Example Cleric: 16th-level Cleric (Wis 12 +1 mod.) Can “Turn Undead 9/day”
Turn Check
Core: : Low Roll (13HD, turned), Average Roll (16HD, turned) , High Roll (19HD, turned);
Variant: N/A;
Turning Damage
Core: Low Roll (19HD), Average Roll (24HD), High Roll (29HD);
(Undead must be within 60' radius of cleric; LR = [all] turned, AR= [all] turned, HR= [all] turned)
Variant Turning Damage: Low Roll (16 dmg), Average Roll (56 dmg), High Roll (96 dmg);
(Damage is done to each undead within the 30' radius burst)
*The affected undead get a Will save (DC 27) for half damage.
Destroying Undead
Core: All rolls would destroy multiple 8HD undead; If you have twice as many levels (or more) as the undead have HD, you destroy any that you would normaly turn.
Variant: Average Roll 56 (Destroyed), High Roll (96 dmg, Destroyed) if Will save failed;
(The average “mummy” has (55hp) each; Although the cleric may be unable to destroy it with the low roll, the cleric has still managed to hurt any undead within the 30' radius burst)
I like the fact that the system is quick and easy;
That the cleric can actually hurt undead by turning them well before being able to destroy them, thereby helping the martial types out even more;
Speaking of destroying undead, I like the fact that once the cleric has twice the level that an undead has that it does not mean that the undead is just fine dust without really any chance of surviving, although by the time a cleric using the variant system is at that level of power it seems to lend itself to the undeads destruction;
Example: 20th level Cleric turns 10HD undead, on average the undead has 65hp not counting any feats that may boost that, the average turn would do 70dmg.
I also like how it makes some feats even more valuable to the undead like “Toughness,” or undead abilities like “Turn Resistance,” as examples.
I don’t like how it makes some feats for clerics or some PrC abilities about worthless, or totally worthless to take , although one could always revamp them to make them work with the new system.
PrC, Example Ability: Positive Energy Burst (Su), This ability enables you to turn undead, almost exactly like the variant rules do, with very miner changes and costing the cleric twice the amount of turning attempts do pull it off with.
Feat, Example: Disciple of the Sun [Divine]: This feat lets you destroy undead that you can normally just turn with the cost of two turning attempts as above. Well it don’t sound to bad but once you take into account that the variant don’t use the (Turning Check) to keep it all in its place, well you can see the problem.
Im not even really worried about all this I can always look them over and see what would work for balance and within the variant system to bring back them back into the fold, sure they may not look quite like they did but if they work and are in balance then I will be happy with them, keep the spirit of them and they should turn out good.
The only other thing that I can think of at the time that I may not like is the fact that there is no Max HD limit to turn an undead. Mostly because I do like the idea of the great hero bringing up said holy symbol to have the powerful undead “X” just laugh it off as if it was the most funny thing he has seen in a long time. I don’t want it quite like the roll on the chart and such but I do have at least two ideas about it that I should jot down someplace before I loose them.
So everyone what do you believe about it being balanced and such and would you even think of puting such a variation in your own campaign?
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