Core Rules Turning Vs. Complete Divine Variant

[JimAde]

Trainz: I think Hellhound meant that Turn Resistance is weak under the variant. Not that the variant is weaker than the regular rules.

 

[Trainz]

Trainz: I think Hellhound meant that Turn Resistance is weak under the variant. Not that the variant is weaker than the regular rules.

Oh...

Well, in that case, IMC I ruled that turn resistance actually applies on the critters Will save, not on damage.

Thus, if a critter has +4 TR, he has 20% more chance of suffering only half damage.

Sorry Hellhound... I am quite daft. I am the king of daftness. You look up daft in the dictionary, there's my picture right next to it.

I'm daft.

 

[Drowbane]

With the Variant out of CD, how does the Sun Domain's greater Turning work? 2d6 per hitdie? (rather than 1d8)

I find that Turn Resistance removing 4 dmg from the roll isn't enough. I have vampires, for example, gain Turn resistance 18 vs the CD version (4.5 x4, basicly the vamp resists average dmg for 4dice)

 

[Corbert]

Oh...

Well, in that case, IMC I ruled that turn resistance actually applies on the critters Will save, not on damage.

Thus, if a critter has +4 TR, he has 20% more chance of suffering only half damage.

.

I do it so that each point of turn resistance gives the undead 1d6 to roll to cancel out turn damage. So turn resistance +4 lets me roll 4d6 and I subtract that from whatevet the cleric rolls before rolling the save.

 

[radferth]

In the core method, turn resistance lets the undead fuction as if they had more HD. To port that over as neutrally as possible, give the undead d12 x turn resistance extra hp that only apply against variant turning (or just 6 x turn resistance to keep down on dice rolling). This resistance in not every attack, it is like temporary HP. I personally like the old method better, but agree the new one is much simpler.

 

[werk]

But I really dislike the fact that it is a 'divine undead fireball'. It just doesn't seem to have the feel of turning undead. Mechanically the variant is fine, thematically I don't like it.

Put me in this camp. Turning undead should...i don't know...TURN them, not BURN them. The variant turning makes it seem like the turner is erupting in positive energy or something, which, while not outside the description of turning, seems rather aggressive (positive energy burst).

Also, how does the variant work with rebuking undead...seems like you wouldn't want to damage your new slaves (or maybe you do, your call).

I don't mind the standard turning rules, but it could be simplified greatly.

 

[Silveras]

Put me in this camp. Turning undead should...i don't know...TURN them, not BURN them. The variant turning makes it seem like the turner is erupting in positive energy or something, which, while not outside the description of turning, seems rather aggressive (positive energy burst).

Also, how does the variant work with rebuking undead...seems like you wouldn't want to damage your new slaves (or maybe you do, your call).

I don't mind the standard turning rules, but it could be simplified greatly.

Put me in the opposite camp ... I like the idea that turning does damage to the undead. Channeling divine energy to do damage makes more sense to me than "scaring" them. That even the core eventually destroys them is ok, but I consider the 2xHD requirement to be problematic. The new system works well.

That being said, I am also of the opinion that the appropriateness of either system varies with the campaign. A campaign featuring many undead foes is probably more appropriate to the Complete Divine variant than a campaign with a standard mix of opponents. In the former case, the variant ability might be almost necessary; in the latter, it could prove unbalancing. That is, incidentally, how it is described in Complete Divine ... as a variant appropriate to some campaigns, but not necessarily all.

 

[Klaus]

I like the variant better. Turning, most of the time, just postpones the problem, and in fact may hinder the party (the wraith flees through a wall, then recovers a minute later and warns every single undead in the catacombs that the PCs are coming). And it doesn't mesh with the other PCs' attempts to battle the undead.

As for the Sun domain's greater turning, I just rule it being an Empowered Turning (i.e. +50% damage). And I quite like Turn Resistance granting a bonus to the Will save for half damage.

 

[kanithardm]

I like the variant, but it needs a bit of work. For turn resistance in the core rules, the undead was treated as having an extra HD per turn resistance that only counted towarfds turning. So I tweaked it so that it did the same thing for the variant. One extra HD gives you an average of 6hp for undead. So the turning cleric hads to lower that extra health before he could turn the undead. That negative shield only counted towards turning. I let evil clerics like in the core give them turn resistance. It works just fine for me. Although I don't know how that would work regarding how that extra health heals. This still leaves the variant a touch more pwerful, but works out just fine.

I don't want it to take too long to heal, because then a weak cleric could whittle away the turn resistance then attack, but I don't want it to be so fast that undead can't be hurt by turning.