Core spell conversions to EoM:R?

[Archus]

Lyceian Arcana, the sequel to EOM-Revised, will contain versions of the core spellcasting classes, with guidelines for using the EOM system in the core rules. Converting all the core spells would be a huge task, and unfortunately not one I'm up to.

I'm really looking forward to L.A. - when can I expect it?

I'm planning on chipping away at the d20 core spells, but the main reason I made the wiki page is so a community can work on it. If 10 people only did 10 spells, that would be 100 spells. I'm also noticing that many spells are just duplicates of one another (not surprising).

I am looking into a simplified version of EOM, but the problem is that the core magic system isn't simple itself, so it's hard to dumb it down and still keep all the fun stuff. EOM is designed to be elegant and consistent, but I wanted to keep almost all the same options the core rules allow.

I suppose a truly simple version of the rules would just have the 11 spells, with no elemental/creature type/alignment differentiation. Flexibility balancing would be a greater issue here, perhaps, but it would make things easy if everything just did one thing.

Don't make it too simple. Really the system isn't too complicated now and has some wiggle room for DM interpretation (which is good and bad). All you really need is a bunch of spells and I'm trying to chip away at that.

I've been trying to rewrite Transform to mesh with the Level Adjustment rules in the monster manual, but I keep hitting snags with creatures that don't have LA, like animals or other nonsentient things.

Since many things won't have level adjustments, I wouldn't use that. CR will always be listed and is a good simple rule of thumb for the power of a critter (at least the short term power for a combat - which is where spells will usually be used). So just keeping the MP cost related to CR will work well for me. Maybe add in some MP costs to just alter size.

Oh, but speaking of fireball, I realized probably the best way to do fireball as a 5-MP spell is to give it a 10-ft. radius, 5d6 damage, range of touch. Charge a rock with the spell, and throw the rock so that it goes off wherever it lands.

Nice. I'll post this as a suggestion under fireball.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

The Dreaded Transform...

I have a current character which is a CL 7 Transform Specialist. Using CR has worked so far, I have a wide variety of interesting alternate forms but nothing that really breaks the game. Actually, the biggest combat advantage I have is to Enlarge myself! Of course, I have not had the opportunity to test out the Large Monstrous Scorpion form in play yet..

I was concerned that the Transform would be horrible, as it is more flexible than the Poly-Other and Shapechange spells. I have found its current incarnation to be well crafted.

Rulesmaster, I have tested EOM:R in a couple of different campains so far, some mine and some run by others. In all situations I have left the majority of the NPCs (and some PCs as well) using core rules for spells. Only special characters used EOM:R spells. There was very little adjustment required. My next campaign will be full open for EOM:R, but still the majority of NPC's will use Core spells for ease of running the show.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sounds very encouraging, Pr.!

 

[RangerWickett]

I was fairly confident Transform was balanced as is, though I was considering a few small changes to it, such as making the new form basically be your 'race,' so that the form would grant you racial hit points. That led me to looking at Infuse Nature, which I realized was underpowered. I'm still not sure what to do with Transform, or if it it even needs changing, but it doesn't feel right for you to transform a 1st level human commoner into a hill giant, and for him to still have just 4 hit points.

I have sent out the art call for Lyceian Arcana, so we should have all the necessary materials by the end of November, which means a mid-December release of LA. This time we'll make sure to put quicklinks in the initial version.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Hill Giant..

I am not sure about granting racial hit dice.. altho for my character would really like it. You already gain a bonus to your CON, and you are already limited by the CR. To change into a hill giant is something like a 14 MP spell. (book not handy...so I guessed )


Mid-Decemeber for LA! Yahoo!

 

[Semirhage]

Transform

The only thing that chaffs me about Transform right now is that my 18th level human Mage is still limited to changing himself into a CR 10 creature. I think that things are balanced right now, but I think there is another, equal way to do it, if I can just work it out.

The nice thing about working with Hit Dice and Level Adjustment is that the Strong Creature enhancement would be unnecessary, since the Level Adjustment already reflect the spell like abilities and such.

The problem is that the EOM:R system is designed not to scale with level, except as MP is concerned and I think Transform, as I envision it, should scale with Character Level, not CR.

 

[RangerWickett]

Well, here are the limiting factors of Transform:

1. Changes to lots of stats. I need to make sure that Transform spells aren't simply better than the equivalent Infuse spells. One of the biggest issues is the change in Constitution. I think with a revision, I would make it so that Transform grants you racial hit points, but if it changes your Con, your class level hit points don't change. This requires less math, since you just add the hit points listed in the monster's entry.

2. Summoning. Summoning should be an easier way to get monsters of a particular power. The theory is that a loyal giant is good, but a loyal fighter who also has the strength and size of a giant is better. I had to look at Transform as a combat buff spell as well as a pseudo-summoning spell.

3. At first I thought, "Okay, I'm a 5th level character, so becoming a CR 5 creature is fair, becoming a CR 3 creature is weak, and becoming a CR 10 creature is strong." But the flavor I wanted was that becoming a big scary monster would actually make you big and scary too, if you were compared to a normal human. So instead of a human fighter 5, your buddy is now an ogre fighter 5, which is darned strong. You aren't replacing your powers; you're adding to your powers, which makes Transform powerful.

4. Next I tried, "Okay, I'm a CR 1/2 human, so becoming a CR 1/2 elf is fair. And a CR 1 troglodyte is good, but not broken. What if I have a demon ally, and I transform him into a different demon that's the same CR?" It doesn't make him more powerful, but it can really give him a ton of powers of a lot of different types. Here, you are replacing your powers, but the versatility of a high-CR demon having a low-level lackey cast Transform spells on him was too powerful. Sure, at any given time he's only CR 15, but he has all the options of being any of a dozen demons, dragons, or other foes that are CR 15 or less.

It's a conundrum.

 

[Staffan]

2. Summoning. Summoning should be an easier way to get monsters of a particular power. The theory is that a loyal giant is good, but a loyal fighter who also has the strength and size of a giant is better. I had to look at Transform as a combat buff spell as well as a pseudo-summoning spell.

While you do have a point, there's also the issue that summoning something means you have another creature running around performing actions. If you already have a demonic ally, turning it into another demon means you still only have one demon using one spell-like ability per round, while summoning one means you have two.

 

[Semirhage]

Animate Enhancement

Staffan, I think RangerWickett is refering to the Animate Enhancement option. The consideration, though, is that an object has no Hit Dice. In a system based on Hit Dice or Level, Transform really can't be used to overshadow Summon.

Even if you limit the CR/ECL to +10 over and above your current level/caster level, as it is currently, a single 9 hit dice/CR creature is the most you can ever Transform, without resorting to rituals, and that remains the same. In that respect, I don't think Transform will ever really challenge Summon. And it shouldn't.

It could easily out-perform Infuse, though. And could compete with certain Move Spell Lists.

Just because I understand the reason for things doesn't mean I have to like them. As noted elsewhere, I love EOM:R. I just miss Shapechange, I guess.

My House Rules will probably be based on ensuring that a 20th level mage can approximate that spell.

 

[RangerWickett]

Oh, the core rules spell Shapechange is one of the craziest, most overpowered spells in the rules.

Someone emailed me a copy of Upper_Krust's CR system, which would let you determine exactly how strong a form is. The thing is, I want to keep math to a minimum, and I don't want players to have to spend fifteen minutes calculating how strong a form is, or make them consult a huge list of creature level adjustments. I'd prefer to use an existing number that's already in the core rules.

I'm sure you can understand, shapeshifting is challenging from a rule standpoint. WotC has a seventy-eight part article describing how just to use Polymorph, so I'll keep thinking for a while, and things should keep working as written without being too unbalanced.

But yeah, I want to turn into a dragon too. Maybe I oughta just have a set of MP costs for if you want to be large, huge, gargantuan, and colossal, and then you can just pick whatever form you want. It won't grant the actual powers of the creature, but it'll look nifty.