D&D 5E Could Paizo go 5e?

Morlock

Banned
Banned
I haven't thought this through beyond the 5 minutes it took to type this, but...

Yeah, seriously, what if Paizo goes 5e? It's not as crazy as it sounds. How many more non-AP books does Pathfinder have in it? If Paizo goes 5e:

1. 5e customers can use new Paizo products with 5e, which is now by far the current D&D favorite. All those 5e players who want to buy a bunch of books like they did for 3e and/or 4e? Now they're your customers. They'll buy your APs and your system books. You're also tapping into a potential boom in 5e content coming from 5e SRD and Guild.

2. 5e rules are more elegant than Pathfinder rules. More designed to be house-ruled. They're the perfect way to roll out Pathfinder 2, or whatever.

3. You can publish errata-ed, enhanced, and otherwise improved and revised hardcover versions of your old PF APs.

4. Similar to #2, if you're already looking to re-boot and start over with a fresh line, 5e is the perfect excuse. It would be much easier to sell existing PF customers on switching to 5e than to sell them on D&D 3.8 or whatever.

Cons

1. A lot of Paizo fans are going to oppose this, obviously. (but a PF fan opposed is countered by a 5e fan who would buy in)
2. It won't be 3e any more. Some people like all that crunch.

I guess it all hinges on 4: if you're already looking to re-boot. Put another way, it may not be time to do that now, or maybe Paizo never plans on doing a re-boot, but if they ever do, doing it 5e would make a lot of sense.
 

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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I don't think it would be impossible. If they made a Pathfinder 2e, they'd probably make it 5e-compatible. PF is a system that is pretty creaky around the edges, and they've got more than enough original content with Golarion and the APs and the classes and monsters and suchlike that it would be nice.

I mean, I'm not much of a PF fan, but if they put out some OGL stuff that is compatible with 5e, I'd probably take a good look! :)
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
If their psionics book was 5e I'd own it already. Would've been tempted by a lot of other products, too.

To revise con #2, I'd add that Paizo could put as much crunch into a 5e version of PF as they wanted to.
 

Paizo already has a loyal fanbase, and they've pretty much said that they'll never again put themselves in a position where their own products depend on another company. I don't see it ever, ever happening. At most, I can see them possibly doing a small line of 5E material or conversions alongside Pathfinder, but going full-on (or even mostly, or even a significant minority) 5E? I think not much earlier than the heat death of the universe.
 

darjr

I crit!
I've come to the conclusion recently that someone very canny is running things at WotC D&D at the moment. I wouldn't put past any options. For instance I recently would have put the two most reluctant companies to work with WotC on a 5e thing in a significant way at 1) Paizo and 2) Green Ronin. And I could have been convinced that the order was the other way round.

But then Green Ronin went and did something wonderful with WotC.


The question to ask is, what would get someone at Paizo to want to do something with Wizards? Anything come to mind? Has anyone over at Paizo been very busy on something not talked about?

I know nothing, but I think interesting answers to the above questions might lead to interesting things.
 
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darjr

I crit!
I think that's a disservice to Paizo's diehard fans. Say Paizo does something, some one thing, with wizards and uses that idea to double down on Pathfinder and their own game lines at the same time? Do you think their fans would be terribly upset if it gets them great things too?
 

mach1.9pants

Adventurer
Could they? Yes. Will they? Not for the forseeable future. If PF RPG sales start tanking and people cross in droves to 5E, then they'll probably have to. The core Paizo/PF fan base is pretty large, satisfied and well services by Paizo & 3P Publishers. I think we'll see a PFRPG 2nd Edition first.
 

Jan van Leyden

Adventurer
The only thing I can imagine is that the Paizo people at some point publish PF 2 which is aligned to D&D 5. Maybe PF 2 could be some heavily crunchified D&D. Still a distinct game with a lot of similarities like in the PF 3.5 days.

But as the OP put it, #4 is probably the decisive factor.
 

CasvalRemDeikun

Adventurer
Ultimately, it all depends on money. Is their current system making them enough money to remain profitable? If not, they may explore other options like the New OGL.
 

delericho

Legend
Paizo already has a loyal fanbase, and they've pretty much said that they'll never again put themselves in a position where their own products depend on another company.

This.

When WotC ended 3e and moved to 4e, and especially when the GSL was delayed, Paizo faced an existential threat - they had to do something and the fate of the company depended on them doing the right thing. Hard to see them choosing to put themselves in a position where that could happen again.
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
Paizo already has a loyal fanbase, and they've pretty much said that they'll never again put themselves in a position where their own products depend on another company. I don't see it ever, ever happening. At most, I can see them possibly doing a small line of 5E material or conversions alongside Pathfinder, but going full-on (or even mostly, or even a significant minority) 5E? I think not much earlier than the heat death of the universe.

There's a 5e SRD now, so Paizo can release a PF 5e Core Book whenever they like. All it would really do is make PF compatible with 5e. It would be taking advantage of 5e's success, while keeping your own advantages (more output, more crunch).

Could they? Yes. Will they? Not for the forseeable future. If PF RPG sales start tanking and people cross in droves to 5E, then they'll probably have to. The core Paizo/PF fan base is pretty large, satisfied and well services by Paizo & 3P Publishers. I think we'll see a PFRPG 2nd Edition first.

Here's the thing though - what does "cross in droves to 5e" even mean? They're gonna buy 5 copies each of the core 3 and 4 AP hardcovers? You buy the core 3 and you've got practically everything but the adventures for 5e, and that's if you're a DM. If all you do is play, you buy the PHB and you're done. In other words, people who want to spend money on 5e player-oriented content have nothing to spend it on. They've had one book in a year and a half. Sorry, 1.5 or 2 books, depending on how you count the Sword Coast book. And the next book WotC is putting out? That's not for players, either. And neither will the one after that.

Instead of simply being content with the customers they have, Paizo should be trying to sell product to those people who want to spend money on 5e, but have nothing to spend it on.

Ultimately, it all depends on money. Is their current system making them enough money to remain profitable? If not, they may explore other options like the New OGL.

More money's always better. They can choose to unify the player bases into one base, and sell to a bigger market, or they can choose to stick to the one they've got out of intertia.

Basing PF2 on 5e is two moves for the price of one; you not only re-boot your whole line (which you kind of need to do because surely it's at or near the saturation point), you also tap into 5e's player-base. Sure, that may anger some players, but how many are going to turn their backs on a unified PF/5e system/player base and go looking for something else? As long as they get their crunch and their APs, are the Paizo customers really going to flee in droves?

They can continue to make their AP PDFs in both flavors, of course. Something tells me those guys know their business, and streamlining the process of creating adventures and encounters for 2 systems at the same time is something they can handle. Printing is more complicated, of course. They can give both systems a go and see which one sells best. They should at least be trying this.

The only good reason I can think of not to do this is if Paizo brass has no intention of doing a PF2, not even a 3.8e (or whatever) version, deciding instead to keep everything "evergreen."

Let's take a good look at how Paizo got to where they are today: SRD, OGL, make good products. Is "never again" really how Paizo views what happened when WotC dropped the ball with 4e? I'd have thought, "again, please" would be a more constructive response.

What have they really got to be mad about? They ate WotC's lunch, and now they have a chance to do it again. With the kicker being, WotC doesn't really even seem to want to eat it, anyway. Win-win.

I think we'll see a PFRPG 2nd Edition first.

Why not kill 2 birds and build the 2nd Edition of Pathfinder around the 5e SRD?
 
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Morlock

Banned
Banned
This.

When WotC ended 3e and moved to 4e, and especially when the GSL was delayed, Paizo faced an existential threat - they had to do something and the fate of the company depended on them doing the right thing. Hard to see them choosing to put themselves in a position where that could happen again.

How could it happen again? Paizo didn't have Pathfinder then. They didn't have all the PF IP then. Paizo would have to sell Pathfinder to someone else to find themselves in a position where 4e could happen again. All they have to do is publish their own rule book. I'm just suggesting that it be compatible with 5e. They got their current rule set from the SRD & OGL. "Never again" isn't really how they view that event, I'm sure. I'm basically just suggesting they do it again for a rules upgrade.

ETA:

I gotta say, "never again" just strikes me as being funny here. Pathfinder RPG, using the 3e SRD and OGL, was the solution to Paizo's problem.
 
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wedgeski

Adventurer
I long ago gave up trying to predict Paizo's customers, but no, I don't see this happening. A PF2 is the most logical next step for them. Maybe split their setting into a system-agnostic gazetteer and a rules supplement, so 5E players can adventure in Golarion if they want? Who knows.
 


In a word? No.

Pathfinder is now at least as different from 3.5e as 3.5e is from 3e (I'd argue moreso), but it feels enough like 3e for people to stick to it. Going pure 5e would be "selling out" in many PF customers' eyes--and I don't buy the notion that at least every lost PF fan would be recouped in gained 5e fans.

I do think that Paizo, sooner or later, has to address the "Pathfinder 2e" question. Because dear god, the weight of the system they've made is immense. I think the whole "Mythic" thing could have been a trial balloon, to see how well people responded to a really new, divergent direction. Since I literally haven't heard a thing about it since it came out, I kinda wonder if that's why they've remained silent. They haven't found a direction to pursue.

Developing a Pathfinder 2e that is made to be at least..."easily convertible" to 5e could be a thing. I don't know if it would work or not. But going "pure" 5e wouldn't work. Too much risk, too much loss, for insufficient or risky gain.
 

Morlock

Banned
Banned
But is that really why people buy Pathfinder? Because it's 3e? It's surely not the only reason. One reason is because it's D&D. Let's face it, older D&D versions, Pathfinder, and 5e all combine to form the actual D&D player base. Another is because they like Paizo's Adventure Paths. Or Golarion. Or the amount of crunch they get over 5e with just a PHB. Etc.

And let's not act like 5e is some redheaded step-child, like 4e was for a lot of people. 3e got a lot of its clout because 4e "wasn't D&D." 5e is quite the opposite.
 

delericho

Legend
How could it happen again? Paizo didn't have Pathfinder then. They didn't have all the PF IP then. Paizo would have to sell Pathfinder to someone else to find themselves in a position where 4e could happen again. All they have to do is publish their own rule book. I'm just suggesting that it be compatible with 5e.

If it's compatible with 5e, then nobody will buy it - they'll just use the 5e books they already own. That means that Pathfinder as a game is done.

And then, when WotC move on to 6e and decide that that edition will be closed, Paizo will be stuck - the Pathfinder game will be gone and difficult to bring back, but they can't immediately use 6e, so they're in trouble.

What they'll probably do is that, when the time comes for PF 2nd Ed, they'll look closely at the contents of the 5e SRD and decide what, if anything, they feel is worth incorporating. But it will almost certainly be a case of bringing 5e enhancements into PF, not a case of building a new PF on a 5e foundation.
 

delericho

Legend
That hasn't been happening already?

Apparently not - Paizo have indicated that their sales haven't been significantly affected by 5e. Which means that either people have been buying both games or 5e has brought in a whole load of new (or returning) people to the market. (Or, most likely, a bit of both.)
 

delericho

Legend
The question to ask is, what would get someone at Paizo to want to do something with Wizards? Anything come to mind?

As once before, I suspect the chance to play with some of the Greyhawk IP would have an attraction.

Even so, I can't see it happening - as I understand it, Paizo simply don't have the staff to support both 5e and PF, and do they're sticking with their own stuff. They could, of course, hire more people to cover it, but it doesn't seem all that likely - dual-stat books seem not to gain enough extra sales to really be worthwhile, and that seems to be the lowest-hanging fruit.
 

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