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<blockquote data-quote="Junkheap" data-source="post: 81744" data-attributes="member: 768"><p><strong>Harm again</strong></p><p></p><p>As far as these discussions have bee going, i don't think a save is fair at all.</p><p></p><p>If you make it fort save, fighter classes benefit and everyone else gets screwed as normal.</p><p>If you make it will save, fighters classes get screwed.</p><p>You can't make it reflex, although the rogue in our camapign started arguing because he can "dodge" the touch better, but it really doesn't change the effectiveness of the spell.</p><p></p><p>In 2e, i don't think it was that much of a desl. You had no touch ac, and still had to hit the armor class of the opponent, then MR, plus creatures only had max 250 HP(as i recall). Not like in 3e where a dragon or some creatures could easily top 600 and touch AC usually sux butt.</p><p></p><p>And i really don't like montes suggested rule change, good idea tho, because then harm wouldn't affect undead would it? If its a fort save and it does not affect objects, undead are immune to it. So you CANNOT harm an undead but you could HEAL it for 1d4 hp left. Hopefully everyone is there with me on that explanation.</p><p></p><p>My suggested changes to heal/harm would be to:</p><p></p><p>Make then positive/negative energy. You can cast protective spells to ignore harm/heal.</p><p></p><p>Make it an average of fort/will, because you are in my mind resisting the effect with your mind as well as your body. Sorry rogue it is in NO way a reflex save. They already get a bonus to the ac due to high dex.</p><p></p><p>And if you make the save(which whith the above method i think is fair)they take half thier remaing HP in damage. So eventually this spell becomes useless, but it has the potential to do lots of damge either way. But tough creatures WILL make thier save, still takes massive damage, BUT be able to survive the fight and still go on. If you fail the save, well then you had your chance, just like a destruction or disintergrate, except with 1d4 hp and a sliver of hope.</p><p></p><p>What do you guys think? Would this work? I still think harm would be very deadly with this change and does not neuter it, and give favouritisnm to certain classes.</p><p></p><p>PS for those who say classes with high fort and will save bebefit more, the rogue classes will on most occasions have a higher touch AC than anybody else(usually)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Junkheap, post: 81744, member: 768"] [b]Harm again[/b] As far as these discussions have bee going, i don't think a save is fair at all. If you make it fort save, fighter classes benefit and everyone else gets screwed as normal. If you make it will save, fighters classes get screwed. You can't make it reflex, although the rogue in our camapign started arguing because he can "dodge" the touch better, but it really doesn't change the effectiveness of the spell. In 2e, i don't think it was that much of a desl. You had no touch ac, and still had to hit the armor class of the opponent, then MR, plus creatures only had max 250 HP(as i recall). Not like in 3e where a dragon or some creatures could easily top 600 and touch AC usually sux butt. And i really don't like montes suggested rule change, good idea tho, because then harm wouldn't affect undead would it? If its a fort save and it does not affect objects, undead are immune to it. So you CANNOT harm an undead but you could HEAL it for 1d4 hp left. Hopefully everyone is there with me on that explanation. My suggested changes to heal/harm would be to: Make then positive/negative energy. You can cast protective spells to ignore harm/heal. Make it an average of fort/will, because you are in my mind resisting the effect with your mind as well as your body. Sorry rogue it is in NO way a reflex save. They already get a bonus to the ac due to high dex. And if you make the save(which whith the above method i think is fair)they take half thier remaing HP in damage. So eventually this spell becomes useless, but it has the potential to do lots of damge either way. But tough creatures WILL make thier save, still takes massive damage, BUT be able to survive the fight and still go on. If you fail the save, well then you had your chance, just like a destruction or disintergrate, except with 1d4 hp and a sliver of hope. What do you guys think? Would this work? I still think harm would be very deadly with this change and does not neuter it, and give favouritisnm to certain classes. PS for those who say classes with high fort and will save bebefit more, the rogue classes will on most occasions have a higher touch AC than anybody else(usually) [/QUOTE]
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