Countering Harm

[Graz]

Does anyone have any good ideas on countering the spell Harm.

If a cleric can get a harm off on a creature, then a party can pretty much kill any creature (if affected by Harm) in one round no matter the power of the creature. Cleric moves in and Harms creature, other party members then only need a single hit, and the creature is dead.

Harm has no saving throw, all you have to do is make a successful touch attack and overcome any spell resistance. Most high level casters usually don't have a problem with spell resistance; spell penetration, greater spell penetration, and high caster level can usually get through most SR scores. Touch attacks are also usually not hard to make, unless fighting something with an extremely high dex.

How do DM's not let this tactic end every fight. I'm just looking for Ideas on this.

 

[Chris Nagle]

IIRC Harm is negative energy.

Have Negative Plane Protection. Cancel eath other?

 

[Graz]

I looked into that. From the way I read the spell, it sounds like it only protects against energy drain and ability score drain.

It would make sense to me if it did protect from it.

I also looked at spells like spell turning, but there it says it doesn't protect against the inflict wounds series, and harm is just the culmination of that series of spells.

 

[Vaxalon]

"Harm" is not an "inflict" spell, or its name would be "Inflict Harm".

 

[AmerginLiath]

correct, just as Heal isn't part of the "Cure-" series of spells...

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Two solutions are popular. Both require rule 0 to change the spell as written.

The first solution is to give the spell a Will save (similar to the inflict wounds spells). The save either negates the effect entirely or causes a set amount of damage (like 6d8 for instance - 1d8 for each spell level).

The second solution leaves the damage as written but changes it from a melee TOUCH attack to a melee attack. This means that the cleric trying to Harm the big, badd dragon must penetrate his full armor class. Not an easy task.

I prefer the first solution. It makes more sense to give the target a saving throw than to say that Harm is no longer a touch attack.

 

[Shin Okada]

Make it a dangerous tactics.

Do not put single big monster. Instead, always put some numbers of capable monsters. Or one big boss + his guards. Then, when an intelligent monster sees a cleric fighting in front rank and casting those touch spells, concentrate all the attacks against him. It is a natural reaction. Then the cleric will learn Harm is not the thing that he should always use.

 

[Gaiden]

If I were the DM and I saw my players using cheesy tactics like harm, summon swarm, or harm, magic missle I would begin to have their enemies fight intelligently - if harm is cast on my person I teleport to X location (with contingency).

Or, have a spellcaster who is simple part of the enemies for couterspelling. There are certainly enough feats/PrC's that deal with counterspelling. I think you can get something like a +15 to any dispell attempt just from abilities from classes and feats.

Lastly you could do some sort of spell that blocks or prevents harm - thinking in 2e terms but I am sure there are some sort of conversions - spell reflection, spell trap, spell turning, spell immunity.

Finally, have the bad guys hire a high level illusionist who will trick the party into fighting figments so that they will use up all of their spells for that day.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I prefer the first solution. It makes more sense to give the target a saving throw than to say that Harm is no longer a touch attack.

No, I don't think it makes much sense.

Slay living is a 5th level touch spell that kills it victim on a failed save and inflict damage on a successful save. Harm wouldn't be much of a 6th level spell under your first option.

Harm should remain a no save touch spell IMO.

If you want to houserule it, and some designers such as Monte Cook have advised it, the most popular option is to put a damage cap to the spell AFAIK. Something around 100 HP would work fine.

 

[Omegium]

Really nasty tactic: first do some subdual damage. 5 subdual damage, harm, enemy is unconsious. can't do anything anymore.
In a game I runned a while ago I gave it a will save, just for statistics, it has never been used. But Malenkirk is right, to balance it with slay living you should either make it a ranged spell, or maximise its damage. But the way it is now is bad, as are spells without saves in general.