Countering Harm

[CRGreathouse]

Re: You dont understand

Obviously i know that harm heals undead. That is in its unaltered PHB form. What you don't seem to understand is that if you make it a fort save(as monte implies)undead are IMMUNE to anything with a fort save, so they don't have to worry about harm. As i stated before and hold true for any spell with a fort save, undead are immune to the spell UNLESS it can affect objects. Harm in monte's altered state would NOT affect undead because harm does not affect objects, unless specifically stated like disintergrate.

1. I think that since the description would include undead, it is specific enough to override the general rule.
2. Who wants a Fortitude save on harm? I suggested a Will save, just like the inflict spells.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Me I just make it 9th level. If you look at the wiz/sor list there no save insta kills imprisonment etc. are 9th level and require a touch. Yes since the guy is actually alive after harm it is weaker, but there isn't some really massive material component or requisite knowledge on the target, and quite frankly he's a cleric if he wanted to be the deadliest there is with spells he should of been a wiz/sor and had to deal with the burden of d4hp, no armor, and crap bab.

 

[Darkness]

Random suggestion: Have it require a costly material component of some kind. Might not work for Mal (who wants it to function like the inflict spells) but maybe it works for someone else.

 

[W. Surefoot]

Let's see if the activation is succesful.

Clerics need to prepare so many spells that there may not be enough room for many Harm spells. Heal needs to be prepared, also Wind Walk, Etherealness can be very useful.

I don't think clerics that prepare 4 Harms a day aren't that useful.

 

[bret]

I think there are a couple of things wrong with Harm.

First of all, it should be a Necromancy (Death) spell, so that Death Ward protects against it. It protects against the Death Domain power, which is very similiar to Harm.

As it is, about the only thing that protects is Spell Resistence, Spell Turning, or a really high touch AC.

Secondly, I think that a Will save for half damage is probably the best house rule. I don't like the damage caps, since it still doesn't really balance the spell when used against humans.

 

[gfunk]

As it is, about the only thing that protects is Spell Resistence, Spell Turning, or a really high touch AC.

Spell Turning doesn't reflect touch attacks.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Still say 9th level is the best way of handling it. Ignore 2nd ed, ignore 1st ed. Just look at the spell and compare it to other spells in the game. What is it closest to, temporal stasis or imprisonment. All of these touch attacks, and all of them pretty much end the fight for the foe touched, with no save. Yep putting a foe into suspended animation is better than knocking them down to d4 hp, but harm has no material component as opposed to a 5,000 gp gem, and quite frankly clerics should have less effective attack spells than wizards.

And while your at it, blade barrier 8th level, flame strike 6th, just look at the divine damage caps for spells in the dmg. Clerics are powerful enough without a few exception to the rule spells.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Spell Turning doesn't reflect touch attacks.

Replace it with spell immunity, perhaps?

 

[Victim]

Spell Immunity only works on spells of 4th level or lower.

Contingency + Heal is probably the best defense, and is useful against lots of other things if the trigger is set to X%hp.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Spell Immunity only works on spells of 0th to 4th level. Might save you from polymorph other or that phantom killer-type spell (tm), but no harm.

Really, harm either needs a save, a material component, or a level boost. I'll go with what the designers of WotC said and give it a Will save (4d8 damage if they succeed). I might want to boost the saved damage to make it better than disintegrate though.

BTW anything that prevents a touch attack saves you from harm eg [i\shield[/i], mirror image, etc. And if your cleric prepared harm, you can always counterspell your opponent's spell. I mean, you know they'll cast harm, so you should be readying the Spellcraft-counterpsell option anyway.