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Counting blows instead of HP

ferratus

Adventurer
The thread about HP/Healing Surges got me to thinking that perhaps the problem of "realism" is HP itself.

HP is basically a flexible system of randomly determining how powerful each successful attack is, and how well the character can withstand it.

What if however you were willing to trade a little bit of flexibility for a little more narrative cohesiveness? What if instead of counting HP you counted how many blows your character can take?

If for example instead of having 42 hp you had 6 body blows you could absorb. If one scores a crtical hit you instead count 2 body blows and perhaps impose a penalty (tripped, disarmed, slowed or what have you. It is only when you get down to 1 or 2 body blow that you are considered physically wounded, a condition that rarely happens because of abilities such as second wind, warlord or bardic inspirational words or clerical prayers allowing you to recover them. When they are actually wounded they need a cleric and bed rest, but it should happen about as often as a character death happens in D&D 4e now.

True, this wouldn't allow for unpredictable rolls bringing someone from full hit points to near death, but I don't particularly mind that loss (I don't like save or die spells and poisons either). It would also unfortunately ensure that a lot of the drama of glancing and grevious blows gets taken out of the system, though perhaps critical hits can compensate for that.

I don't mind the idea of a party being predictably ground down over an encounter or over a day either (like it is in 4e), I just need to be judicious about how and when the body blows are recovered to prevent the idea of a lack of danger.

The only question then remains is how many body blows should one receive by class? Should one be able to withstand extra body blows wearing armor? Should one be able to withstand more body blows at higher level, or just be better at recovering them?
 

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Viking Bastard

Adventurer
Haze over at Exploring Infinity posted a system like this for the DM's side of the screen. Shouldn't be that difficult to convert over to the player's side.

Part 1: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 1) | Exploring Infinity
Part 2: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 2) | Exploring Infinity
Part 3: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 3) | Exploring Infinity

I've used this for one game so far and I like it a lot. We only used it for the monsters, though.
 

MatthewJHanson

Registered Ninja
Publisher
My worry about such a system is actually differentiating among damage dealt. Do a frail wizard with a club and a half-orc barbarian with a great axe both inflict one body blow?
 


the Jester

Legend
Do all attacks deal the same damage?

If so, why is an ogre scarier than a kobold?

If not, what is the point of switching from hit points to blows? It's just the same thing with different numbers.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
[MENTION=9618]Viking[/MENTION] - That does have a lot of good ideas, though my gut tells me it might be needlessly complex. I like the formula for determining how many boxes you get, but I'm not sure about the threshold for a solid blow. It seems like it would get frustrating to turn a low damage blow into an outright miss, when hitting defenses if often difficult to start with.

[MENTION=13968]MatthewJHanson[/MENTION] - Yes, you would lose a bit of that flexibility to determine the degree of the wound. Your mileage may vary on this, because I'm generally someone who believes that weapons shouldn't do more or less damage. You only need 3 inches to kill a man, so why does a plunging dagger do less damage than a longsword? A longsword doesn't create more grevious wounds than a dagger, it simply has better capabilities of reach and defense.

As well, remember that unless we're dealing with the last body blow before death, the character isn't considered to be physically wounded. A better term is needed mayhaps for counting how many blows you can withstand before your defenses are down and the killing blow is struck. An axe is only slightly more lethal than a club when your defenses are down, but an axe is much better at tearing apart defenses like shields and armor (especially chainmail). So maybe that's where we should look for differentiation. As for the difference of raw strength, I think that can be accounted for simply by having the orc with the great axe hit more often in melee due to his strength influencing the attack roll.

[MENTION=21556]Jester[/MENTION] - Monsters can be customized to do count more blows for a single attack, or to be able to take more blows based on strength or creature type respectively. One could also add conditions like dazing or knocking a character prone to represent the force of a blow.

[MENTION=34194]byron[/MENTION]D - I know you don't like experimenting with core game mechanics. That's why I put the "Game Theory" tag on it so you would know to avoid it and not be tiresome. I would like to tinker with the implications of not using HP today, not get into an argument about the superiority of D&D mechanics of a particular edition today.
 

BryonD

Hero
LOL

That's funny. I LOVE experimenting with core mechanics. I probably haven't played two campaigns in over a decade that didn't have SOME distinct element that was different between them.

But, I don't fall into the "just because it was a new idea it was a good idea" camp.

And I didn't even mention ANY edition. So, perhaps, you should be just a hair less sensitive and realize that (a) other people asked some serious questions that could use a quality answer and (b) all I did was joke with somebody OTHER than you.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Haze over at Exploring Infinity posted a system like this for the DM's side of the screen. Shouldn't be that difficult to convert over to the player's side.

Part 1: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 1) | Exploring Infinity
Part 2: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 2) | Exploring Infinity
Part 3: DnD without Hit Points, Damage without Math (Part 3) | Exploring Infinity

I've used this for one game so far and I like it a lot. We only used it for the monsters, though.

Red this over. Several other systems have a model similar to this but this one seems like a good representation for the DND system.

The only major issue I have is that I don't know if the damage thresholds scale properly. For example, at 1st level the damage threshold is 4. Considering most players have a 16 if not an 18 in their prime stat at 1st level then everyone is going to be dealing hard hits.

Also, I think the x2 threshold is important for big damage, but once you start going to x3 and x4 your expecting the same kind of math that the standard system requires.
 

BryonD

Hero
Monsters can be customized to do count more blows for a single attack, or to be able to take more blows based on strength or creature type respectively.
Perhaps part of the reason I find it funny and you are missing it is you don't know that history of the term "hit points".

In old school war games a "hit" target was out of the battle. But a special unit might be able to withstand more so it had more "hit points". The word is right term, it isn't "damage points", it is "hit points"

but as the game switched from mass units of standard troops to specifically focusing on the heroes multiple hit points became not only the norm but even inadequate to do the experience justice. And their application evolved.
 

ferratus

Adventurer
[MENTION=34194]byron[/MENTION]D - Usually, when you post in a thread I start, you are being tiresome and derail it. So given that you are not interested or willing to discuss the topic, I would like you to stop being tiresome and derailing this thread by being negative. Either talk about potential pitfalls of this idea, or how the basic idea could be expanded and/or improved.

In other words, if it isn't a good idea contribute by explaining how instead of threadcrapping.

~ he isn't threadcrapping, he is joking with someone. Which is allowed and encouraged. I don't understand why you are trying to make this personal though. Just gloss over it, don't pick a fight. Because if you do, the moderators will do their job. Plane Sailing, ENworld Admin ~
 
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