Coup de Grace

[Vicar In A Tutu]

How about this variant (only available out of combat, i.e. as a "surprise attack" against a helpless opponent, sneaking up on a sleeping foe, etc):

You automatically inflict a critical hit (no roll required), but if you make a basic attack vs. Fortitude, the foe is instantly slain.

 

[Mort_Q]

Personally, I would rather rule such things case-by-case.

The local drunken thug... sure.

A sleeping ancient red dragon... no.

 

[generalhenry]

against any target you have any business on instant killing an auto crit with an encounter power will kill them.

AKA it's fine as is.


for instance 1st level brutal rogue with a short sword using Torturous Strike

12 (short sword) + 20 (sneak attack) + 4 (dex) + 4 (str) = 40 damage

If you're fighting something at 1st level with more than 40 HP, you're not supposed to instant kill it.

 

[useridunavailable]

A sleeping ancient red dragon... no.

Exactly. If it's something you should be able to insta-kill, it'll die anyway. If not, it should just wake up mad... I think the coup de grace rules are fine as written, but if you don't, there are far less broken changes you could make.

That said, I don't see a huge problem with just making CDG auto-hit, or perhaps allowing the character to either take 10 or roll and deal double damage on a 20... something like that.

What you propose would just make the Sleep spell even more powerful than it already is - and it's pretty darned powerful already.

Edit: Ah - out of combat... well, as long as you're judicious about what you lay out for the slaughter, I don't really see a problem with that.

 

[generalhenry]

You can't attack out of combat....since attacking starts combat.

You can open up with your best encounter powers each time.


also, if they're meant to be easy kills, make them as minions.

 

[coldpheasant]

A 40-damage coup de grace would instantly kill a creature with 80 hp. If you deal the "bloodied" amount of damage in a coup de grace you slay the target outright according to the PHB.

My 1st level group had a little bit of frustration with the coup de grace rules during our game this week. The wizard put a group of goblins to sleep and the paladin was going to coup de grace a goblin warrior (lvl 1, 29hp). His max damage on his at-will power was 14, which was one point short of dealing the bloodied value of the goblin warrior and slaying it.

I thought about what to do... on the one hand, it is perfectly realistic in my mind that it might take two blows to kill even a helpless opponent. You might mortally wound them with the first blow, but they might be twitching until you nail them again. Hitchcock used to enjoy stressing how much of a gruesome and horrifying thing it is to actually try and kill a person. Also, the paladin was not at all maximized for damage and was in the midst of a melee attacking an opponent wearing some measure of armor... It was not difficult to imagine the goblin surviving the blow.

On the other hand, it was only one point off and I wasn't really going for a gruesome or horrifying tone for the game, rather I was aiming for epic heroism (although it could be argued that there is nothing heroic about a freaking paladin taking the time to coup de grace a helpless goblin when there were standing foes in melee range).

Since it was a trial run of the new system, we discussed the new rules for coup de grace around the table for a bit. One guy thought that the rules didn't work if the pally couldn't kill a 1st level goblin with a coup de grace. I agree with an above poster that it is situational and the rules are a great guideline.

The paladin decided that he could kill the goblin if he used his divine strength(encounter-class feature) to raise his strength before the strike, so I decided that he could kill the goblin if he used it, and we moved on with the fight. Any encounter power would have finished off the goblin. Any striker class could have killed the goblin with an at-will power. A more damage-maximized paladin could have slain the goblin with an at-will power. I think it works the way it is.

 

[Kordeth]

This thread should really be in 4E House Rules, but the only change I'd consider making to the coup de grace rules is to add the following effect:

"Miss: You score a hit with the power, inflicting damage and triggering any effects that occur upon a hit. This overrides any effect the power normally has on a miss."

 

[generalhenry]

out of combat it's much more powerful with out a miss effect, you simply try again.

 

[erik_the_guy]

Personally, I would rather rule such things case-by-case.

The local drunken thug... sure.

A sleeping ancient red dragon... no.

If you can STR vs FORT an ancient red dragon, you deserve to kill it.
With the plethora of bonuses a character adds when they deal a crit at high level (with magic weapons) there is a decent chance to deal its bloodied value and kill it anyways... well maybe I overexaggerate.